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Author Topic: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?  (Read 16949 times)

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EastAnglianTed

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Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« on: August 11, 2013, 11:52:14 PM »

    Just wondering why, in some cases for example, if you sold a Mory (i.e. very expensive box) you still wouldn't have enough money to buy some concertinas?
    Is it to do with age? Reed quality? I know it's a fast and loose question but I can't find why some small concertinas cost £4000 and up.
    I am well aware of why, when it comes to a melodeon, that say a Castagnari costs more than a Hohner (workmanship, reed quality etc.) but concertinas are generally smaller than nearly all boxes and have one reed per note so less reeds overall (in general?).
    Their size would dictate less materials needed, so I can't work out why they cost so much. Is it a fiddly instrument to construct? Much like a pocket watch is harder to make than a grandfather clock (sizewise)?
    Just a general question, not having a go just genuinely interested  :D
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Theo

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2013, 12:01:49 AM »

I don't think there is one simple answer, but a big factor is that in a quality concertina many of the parts that are machine made in a melodeon would be hand made, this applies particularly to the reeds.  Even the pars that are machine made are made in smaller quantities and so the economies of scale work in favour of making melodeons cheaper.  Then the small size actually makes the construction more demanding.  Sure there are fewer reeds, but the mechanical parts are just as numerous.  Finally, the best concertinas are nearly all vintage instruments and are not being made any more, so there is a very limited supply.

And I'd just add that for top instruments even concertinas are cheap.  I don't think I've ever seen a concertina offered for sale for over £10,000, and yet with violins or guitars the most prized instruments are many many times more - and they are just a wooden box and a stick, with some bits of wire stretched over. >:E
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 12:08:11 AM by Theo »
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2013, 12:22:06 AM »

I think Theo has got it spot-on. All I will add is that nearly all of the high-quality traditional reeded instruments being made today are being built by individual makers, or a very small dedicated team. For example, Geoff Crabb works entirely on his own and makes every component, while Colin Dipper works with his wife Rosalie who makes the bellows, plus one other person who shares the reed-making work. Such high intensity, individual working is always going to command a high price.

By contrast, even the high-end Italian melodeon makers such as Castagnari have cottage-industry scale factories employing quite a few people, and components such as bellows, reeds, buttons, etc., are out-sourced to specialist manufacturers often based in the same geographical area. So their overall production rate is much higher and therefore the final product is inevitably cheaper.

I guess that an individual melodeon maker such Doug Briggs (basic instrument price £5100) is comparable with one of the bespoke concertina makers.
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Adam-T

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2013, 07:30:53 AM »

I`m probably alone on this but here goes .... although I like the sound of Concertinas as much as the next squeezer (hate trying to play them however) I think there`s a point where the thing as an instrument fails to be worth the price - £5000-£6000 for a single voice free reed instrument is IMO way beyond sanity, I think you`d be hard pushed to pay 6 grand for a melodeon (as in small box up to 3 rows not a 6 row steirische) unless you got Doug Briggs, Valentin Zupan or Hermann Jamnik to do a custom job and you get one hell of a high end PA or CBA for that kind of cash ..

The same applies to the simple descant recorder where a crap one is £3.99, a decent one is £25 and a top of the range one is £250 but if you`re clinically insane you can pay £2500 for one !

EDIT - The big diff between Freereeders & Recorders compared to string instruments of course is that special seasoned woods aren't needed for resonant soundboards etc so none of the rigmarole which goes with that .
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 07:35:43 AM by Adam-T »
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Howard Jones

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2013, 09:04:23 AM »

£5000-£6000 for a professional-quality instrument is not actually a lot of money.  However the price for some anglos does seem to have been inflated by worldwide demand from players of Irish music, who seem to believe that to be taken seriously they have to play a vintage Jeffries - instruments of similar quality but without the magic Jeffries name can often be significantly cheaper.  English system concertinas tend to be cheaper, and duets even more so, because there isn't the same demand.

The real issue is why even 'cheap' concertinas are so expensive, and it's for the same reasons that Theo has given - even where costs can be reduced by using accordion reeds, most of the work has to be done by hand.  It also requires a lot of specialised tools.

Geoff Crabb has produced a list of all the components in a concertina - I forget the exact figure but IIRC it was around 4000.

Chris Brimley

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2013, 09:39:57 AM »

Are the economies of scale also involved in this issue?  Maybe I'll be taken to task for this comment, but aren't there many fewer concertinas around?
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2013, 12:02:47 PM »

- even where costs can be reduced by using accordion reeds, most of the work has to be done by hand.

It seems such a shame to produce 4,000 parts to be build a concertina and then ruin the whole thing by fitting accordion reeds - makes it sound like a Lilly!  For those who think I'm joking, perhaps you have never heard a really good concertina?  I was playing with my mate the other day and he decided to buy a Jefferies to replace his ex-SA Lachenal before he got too old to play it.  The sound is only slightly different from the Lachenal, but the speed of the action means he can leave me for dead.

Rob
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Owen Woods

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2013, 12:38:04 PM »

Have you ever looked inside a concertina Ted? That should answer your question! Much more intricate, much more complicated, much higher tolerances.
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oggiesnr

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2013, 12:42:11 PM »

Quality, rarity, fashion and lack of modern production all play a part.

The prices of top quality concertinas are not out of line with those of most quality instruments the main exception being stringed instruments (which are a law unto themselves).

If you want insane, I recently played two double basses.  One was a modern instrument, yours for £15,000. The other was an older instrument, 300 years older, for the price tag was well in excess of six figures!

Personally I can understand the price of vintage Jefefries or a Dipper or Crabb a lot more than I can understand the prices of many of the melodeons coming out of Castilfardo.

Steve
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EastAnglianTed

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2013, 01:05:36 PM »

Have you ever looked inside a concertina Ted? That should answer your question! Much more intricate, much more complicated, much higher tolerances.
    Admittedly not, though I know where I can have a look as a relative has an old beaten up one. I will have a look with great interest soon  (:)
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Lester

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2013, 01:06:02 PM »

Like everything else in the world the price of concertinas will settle at the amount of money people are will to give for them.

oggiesnr

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2013, 01:12:21 PM »

Like everything else in the world the price of concertinas will settle at the amount of money people are will to give for them.

Bit like Grey Paolo's really :)

Steve
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2013, 01:21:57 PM »

Like everything else in the world the price of concertinas will settle at the amount of money people are will to give for them.

Fully agree Lester, books and paintings fall into the same category.
A book dealer customer of mine many years ago was compiling his catalogue and amongst his valuable and rare books he added an old beaten up paperback (worthless ) priced at £40.00.
Asking why, he said some mug will buy it, books are only worth what people are prepared to pay for them. Sure enough it did sell.
Anyone want to buy a Fettled Chanson @ £4,300 ?
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malcolmbebb

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2013, 03:35:16 PM »

Have you ever looked inside a concertina Ted? That should answer your question! Much more intricate, much more complicated, much higher tolerances.
    Admittedly not, though I know where I can have a look as a relative has an old beaten up one. I will have a look with great interest soon  (:)
This conversation has centred around high end boxes. It is possible* to buy  a new concertina for under £200. Similarly, Germany has pumped out many thousands of "export" boxes in varying qualities for much of the last century, many of which were affordable and did sterling work as instruments for ordinary people.
Construction and design follows accordion practice, which they were also banging out by the thousands.

So looking at an old beater won't necessarily tell you much about why a Dipper costs what it does.

Another factor is that the high end concertina makers put a lot of work into the design and craftsmanship of the whole instrument, fretwork and bellows. You have only to look at a high end concertina, a Dipper or a Wakker, several others these days, to see that you have not just a musical instrument but a work of art. And that's before you pick it up and feel the action... you have stopped wondering why they're expensive by this point.

Malcolm
*I said possible. I didn't say recommended.
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Owen Woods

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2013, 03:49:48 PM »

This conversation has centred around high end boxes. It is possible* to buy  a new concertina for under £200. Similarly, Germany has pumped out many thousands of "export" boxes in varying qualities for much of the last century, many of which were affordable and did sterling work as instruments for ordinary people.
Construction and design follows accordion practice, which they were also banging out by the thousands.

So looking at an old beater won't necessarily tell you much about why a Dipper costs what it does.

Another factor is that the high end concertina makers put a lot of work into the design and craftsmanship of the whole instrument, fretwork and bellows. You have only to look at a high end concertina, a Dipper or a Wakker, several others these days, to see that you have not just a musical instrument but a work of art. And that's before you pick it up and feel the action... you have stopped wondering why they're expensive by this point.

Malcolm
*I said possible. I didn't say recommended.

This.
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IanD

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2013, 04:09:04 PM »

    Just wondering why, in some cases for example, if you sold a Mory (i.e. very expensive box) you still wouldn't have enough money to buy some concertinas?
    Is it to do with age? Reed quality? I know it's a fast and loose question but I can't find why some small concertinas cost £4000 and up.
    I am well aware of why, when it comes to a melodeon, that say a Castagnari costs more than a Hohner (workmanship, reed quality etc.) but concertinas are generally smaller than nearly all boxes and have one reed per note so less reeds overall (in general?).
    Their size would dictate less materials needed, so I can't work out why they cost so much. Is it a fiddly instrument to construct? Much like a pocket watch is harder to make than a grandfather clock (sizewise)?
    Just a general question, not having a go just genuinely interested  :D

When Hilda had her 39 key G/D Crabb made in 1979 it cost the then huge sum of £1000. I talked to Neville at great length (as you invariably did) and he said that he'd worked out the number of hours it took them to make such a box, and that he couldn't make a living out of it even at that price, but that the market wouldn't pay a more realistic sum -- the only thing that kept Crabb in business was repairs and refurbishments for which the hourly rate was considerably higher.

Adjusted for inflation this would be £4300 today. If this wasn't enough to make a decent living for a highly skilled craftman then, I doubt if it is now.

Even Doug Briggs buys high-quality reeds in from the Italian factories, and his melodeons are over £5000. So allowing for the truly hand-made reeds in concertinas, I suspect a proper market value for one nowadays would be somewhat higher than this to make a living out of it, maybe £6000 or so.

But then as Neville complained to me, folkies always were skinflints as far as high-quality instruments were concerned  ;)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 04:13:47 PM by IanD »
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Adam-T

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2013, 04:22:07 PM »

Adjusted for inflation this would be £4300 today. If this wasn't enough to make a decent living for a highly skilled craftman then, I doubt if it is now.

So it must get to a stage where the concertina as an instrument isn`t worth the expenditure in time and money for a master craftsman to make to a certain standard - I hate to say this but  it`s only a concertina at the end of the day - rather like the £2500 recorder business, it`s not a Bassoon or an Oboe or a clarinet, it`s just a recorder .....
I guess this is another of those "out on my own" things again , I just don`t have the sentimentality for the Concertina to be able to even comprehend why someone would pay as much as a new car for one.

I bet Colin Dipper etc could make the worlds most expensive mouthie with individual reedplates, special valves, exotic materials too - OK there`s no where near as much in there as even the simplest Anglos but the same would apply in the time & build cost to "what it is" ratio
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Owen Woods

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2013, 04:32:46 PM »

I disagree with your assessment of both the concertina and the recorder!
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Lester

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2013, 04:33:28 PM »

I disagree with your assessment of both the concertina and the recorder!

Correct  (:)

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Re: Why are some Concertinas so expensive?
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2013, 04:35:36 PM »

Adjusted for inflation this would be £4300 today. If this wasn't enough to make a decent living for a highly skilled craftman then, I doubt if it is now.

So it must get to a stage where the concertina as an instrument isn`t worth the expenditure in time and money for a master craftsman to make to a certain standard - I hate to say this but  it`s only a concertina at the end of the day - rather like the £2500 recorder business, it`s not a Bassoon or an Oboe or a clarinet, it`s just a recorder .....
I guess this is another of those "out on my own" things again , I just don`t have the sentimentality for the Concertina to be able to even comprehend why someone would pay as much as a new car for one.

I bet Colin Dipper etc could make the worlds most expensive mouthie with individual reedplates, special valves, exotic materials too - OK there`s no where near as much in there as even the simplest Anglos but the same would apply in the time & build cost to "what it is" ratio

But the simple fact is that a concertina made with accordion reeds really sounds nothing like a concertina with traditional concertina reeds -- the difference is much bigger than (for example) a mid-priced versus an expensive recorder, which are basically built the same way with similar materials but with a more or less skilled (or highly paid) maker.

Concertinas were conceived in a time when labour was cheap and there was no need to minimise the number of hours it took to make one, so that's how they were designed and built, especially the reeds. With modern CAD tools it ought to be possible to get the same (or maybe even better) result more cheaply, but then you'd have to invest in the tooling and setup which wouldn't make sense unless you made a lot of instruments -- and you'd have to convince the stick-in-the-mud "handmade is best" market (which is probably most of it...) that your "handmade-by-machine" instrument was actually better, so good luck with that ;-)
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