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Author Topic: Single row rolls  (Read 3349 times)

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Trefry

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Single row rolls
« on: September 04, 2013, 04:29:11 PM »

In Gilles Poutoux's book Musique-Accordeon Methode de Jeu, he describes two types of four-note single row rolls: type 1 is note cut note note and type 2 is note note cut note.  My sense is that the first type of roll is more popular given its similarity to a five-note double row roll and because, other than Gilles' book, I haven't seen the second type of roll described anywhere.  I can play both types of rolls, but I find that the second type feels a little more natural, especially if the roll begins on an off beat.  I tend to only play the second type of roll when I play what Gilles describes as a double roll: note cut note cut note (all on the same row).

If I stick with the second type as my predominant four-note roll, will others likely think it sounds wrong?

Thanks,

John
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 04:47:27 PM by J Trefry »
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deltasalmon

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Re: Single row rolls
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2013, 04:40:38 PM »

I'm no expert on the subject but I don't think the note-note-cut-note roll sounds wrong at all. When I play on my one row that's the way I roll and even on my two row I often will do a roll like that over a 5-note roll. That's probably more just because I don't have the 5 note roll as crisp as I would like it but I still don't think the "type 2" 4-note roll sounds wrong at all.
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Sean McGinnis
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Stiamh

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Re: Single row rolls
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2013, 06:09:56 PM »

If I stick with the second type as my predominant four-note roll, will others likely think it sounds wrong?

Hi John. Hard to say without hearing what you mean and what you are doing. Care to post an audio sample?

I have Gilles P's book somewhere - can't find it just now but I did just listen to what I think are the relevant tracks on the accompanying CD and really I think the terminology he uses is idiosyncratic is very loose. Some of what he calls rolls are just little triplets of the kind every species of box player uses. Other thingies are closer to the sound of what most people would recognize as rolls. His "double roll" just seems to be a roll-like thingy followed by a cut to separate the next note in the tune, which is a repeat of the "rolled" note.

When you say you use note note cut note on an offbeat I suspect you might be doing one of those little common or garden triplets, with the first of your "notes" being the lead-in to the offbeat... I can't speak for what others might think but I could tell you how they strike me, if you show us!  :|glug
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deltasalmon

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Re: Single row rolls
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2013, 06:51:31 PM »

I tried to look back to a video of Gillies' where he played note-note-cut-note. I think every instance I've found was actually a quaver followed by a short roll of the same note.
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Sean McGinnis
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oolong32

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Re: Single row rolls
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2013, 07:23:48 PM »

It's no answer to your question, but Gilles Poutoux is showing three ways of playing a roll in his "Salamanca pédagogique" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgpSjZ3xiVA at 1:24.
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george garside

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Re: Single row rolls
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2013, 07:34:51 PM »

If I stick with the second type as my predominant four-note roll, will others likely think it sounds wrong?

 ?
 . Some of what he calls rolls are just little triplets of the kind every species of box player uses. Other thingies are closer to the sound of what most people would recognize as rolls. His "double roll" just seems to be a roll-like thingy followed by a cut to separate the next note in the tune, which is a repeat of the "rolled" note.

   

''little triplets'' ''other thingies'', ''roll like thingies''  - perhaps loosely translated as ''twiddles using 2 or 3 fingers on same row'' and likely to be of the kind every species of box player uses!

george ;D


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oolong32

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Re: Single row rolls
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2013, 08:44:39 PM »

On a second thought: afaik what Gilles Poutoux calls a "roll" derives from an ornament played on a drum. Now, every drummer should be able to play "bang-ba-da-bang" as well as "ba-da-bang-bang", right? But you certainly can't say one of these patterns is superior to the other one. Which one you choose at a given time should be up to your own judgement.
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Gary Chapin

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Re: Single row rolls
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2013, 09:06:08 PM »

His "double roll" just seems to be a roll-like thingy followed by a cut to separate the next note in the tune, which is a repeat of the "rolled" note.
Lift a glass for the "roll-like thingy."   :|glug
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Trefry

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Re: Single row rolls
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2013, 09:40:37 PM »

Thank you for all of the replies so far.  Below is a link to a video of me attempting to execute the second type of roll that I describe above.   The first one is an E roll and obviously starts on the beat.  The second one is an A roll that starts on the off beat.  I've been playing for less than a year, so I'm sure that my rolls don't do justice to Mr. Poutoux's very helpful book.

Edit:  I removed the link now that my question has been answered.  Thanks to all for the helpful feedback.


« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 03:36:13 PM by J Trefry »
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pikey

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Re: Single row rolls
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2013, 10:52:34 PM »

Roro ? Roll on roll off ?
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Ebor_fiddler

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Re: Single row rolls
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2013, 11:27:11 PM »

Ferry good!
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Re: Single row rolls
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2013, 11:38:52 PM »

Your roll really sounds a bit odd, but not because it's a wrong one, it's due to the dynamics. I think you should watch Poutoux' Morrison Jig tutorial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OKgKv8haoo at 0:55 he talks about the 6/8 rhythm, and that you should put the emphasis on the third note of each triplet "tyaa ta TAA, taa ta TAA" (→ swing) as opposed to "TAA ta ta, Taa ta ta" (→ square). When you apply this to the roll (it doesn't matter which kind), then it should get better.
Maybe it helps to practice scales of rolls. In a second step you can add the chord bass button on every third note and in a third step the air button, released just before every third note to get extra bounce.

Btw. Poutoux offers an alternate ornament at 2:16. You can subsitute all rolls with it, it's much easier.  :|glug
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KLR

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Re: Single row rolls
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2013, 01:34:06 AM »

A discussion about the C#/ D or D/C# accordion system at thesession.org mostly concerned Poutoux's book, may be of interest.  He's a nice player.

I've only bothered with one grace rolls at this point haven't really recorded myself enough to know what I'm after soundwise, the 5 note roll is just extra work.  Playing steadily with a strong rhythm, adding drive to the music and not getting in the way of others is what you strive for playing in sessions.  Other box players might take offense of course but most other musicians take little interest in how other instruments work, so as long as you're not dragging things down and aren't too loud you're good.  There's always trebles, too, I play those a lot when a roll seems too "roomy" at that point in the tune, when I want something more abrupt. 

Isn't there a print tutor for the C#/D in English?  Steve Jones has a lot of nice tutorial vids for the C#/D on YouTube btw.
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Stiamh

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Re: Single row rolls
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2013, 05:30:41 AM »

John, your second "roll" on A is not really a roll at all. It's what I guessed at in my first answer - a quaver (eighth note) A followed by a crotchet (quarter note) A decorated with an upper grace note of d in triplet form. In ABC notation:

FA (3AdA

Nothing wrong with that that a bit more fluency wouldn't put right, if you see what I mean.

The first one seems more problematic to me. It puts the emphasis in the wrong place, to my ear. You are playing EE{G}E with three evenly spaced quavers/8th notes.

The grace note has the effect of accentuating the third, and despite what GP says, I don't think you should put the emphasis there in a jig, certainly not systematically anyway. (One of the problems I have with GP's approach is that it seems rather formulaic as to where to place accents in the different tune types - generally sound but approaching things this way it's easy to forget that the tune is actually a melody and not merely a rhythmic device, which can make one's playing very monotonous very quickly.)

I think you would achieve a better effect with E{G}EE. This will work in reels and jigs - and hornpipes too in fact.

And if you really want a roll-like effect (i.e. similar to a roll played on fiddle or flute) you will be able to "swing" this way of doing things by lengthening the first note and cramming the rest into a shorter space of time. (Nothing wrong with playing it straight, not swinging, of course; but depending on your overall rhythm a swung roll will give a nice lift. Almost essential in hornpipes for example.)
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Single row rolls
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2013, 08:42:06 AM »

First to welcome our inveterate one-liners to this (and every) topic. Very droll …

To return to melodeon discussion, I don't feel the exact pattern of ornament to be critical in solo play. We all develop our own styles, though that's not to say that our choice doesn't evoke other music

Things are probably more critical in traditions where multiple instruments play in strict unison.

I think a roll (whatever) against others playing straight tempo is fine, brief tension/resolution, great music.   Lots of different rolls, cuts, mordants  going on randomly at once? hmm … here a common 'agreed' approach becomes more sensible. A drumming analogy brings this out pretty forcefully? Is this"formulaic"? maybe it needs to be?

I'm not too good at these, but recommend study of them to all styes of player. One of the best workshops I've attended was Manu Paris on D pipes, I got to. understand those rolls , burls and what he called a. "tuk, tuk" better; hope it moved my own music on

… back to Limericks.  ;)
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george garside

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Re: Single row rolls
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2013, 09:11:00 AM »

there was a player of old

who could do a magnificent roll

his fingers moved fast

so the first note and the last

were  just a quick a twiddle

and  sounded just like a fiddle 

george

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Stiamh

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Re: Single row rolls
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2013, 12:09:21 PM »

The other point I would make John is that while it's natural to want to get ornamentation happening, you shouldn't pay so much attention to it that you neglect to develop more basic aspects of your playing. Adding ornaments onto a tune when you haven't got the basic rhythm down is not going to improve matters. To be blunt, you need to get your bellows under control and you need to get your jig sounding like a jig and your reel sounding like a reel before you worry much about dolling them up. Not what you were asking but I think this advice is of more use to you than anything anybody including me has said in this thread. Sorry.  (:)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 12:10:57 PM by Steve Jones »
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george garside

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Re: Single row rolls
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2013, 01:38:13 PM »

seconded!

george
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Trefry

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Re: Single row rolls
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2013, 03:34:50 PM »

My sincere thanks to everyone that provided helpful information and blunt feedback. 

John
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