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Author Topic: singing with the melodeon  (Read 7654 times)

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boxcall

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singing with the melodeon
« on: September 16, 2013, 04:09:03 PM »

I'm trying to learn to do this , here is an effort I made with fiddlers green.
not the complete version just a few versus i know well enough (hopefully not to far off pitch)
feed back welcome

https://soundcloud.com/boxcall/fiddlers-green
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Sage Herb

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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2013, 09:04:23 AM »

There are lots of approaches to song accompaniment, including vamping the chords and devising a countermelody. No hard and fast rules, but it's generally worth trying not to duplicate every note of the song melody. Maybe try a sketchier version of the tune on the box? (BTW the song is not Irish as tagged on Soundcloud, but was composed by Lincolnshire songwriter John Connolly.)
Cheers and good luck
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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2013, 09:17:10 AM »

Once went to a song accompaniment workshop given by John Kirkpatrick, he said the only 'rule' was to never play the tune :)

Chris Ryall

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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2013, 10:07:22 AM »

While I generally agree, this is a valid accompaniment, and a style not uncommon in the concertina fraternity. I too think chords are better, actually more "interesting" musically, the voice moves in and out of tension against the chord. It took me nearly 20 years to crack singing, partly learning chords, and partly that my voice didn't suit the chords that came with my D/G. I'd say "from here"

1. Well, and bravely done, be encouraged
2. Learn the right end chords, G, D, Em (on row)
    and C, Am, (Bm) across rows, experiment a bit …
3 Find a 'lick' that sounds good to you, basically one chord per bar (or two)
4. Get that playing, "without thought" if you know what I mean

You can then sing your song against that, as you would with guitar. The picked out tune you've worked up is not wasted. You can run bars of that instead of chords, after a while you will be able to interchange at will.  Similarly some standard chord swaps G|Em,  D|Bm can be experimented with, for interest.

Sorry if this reception feels deflating, but the method you've picked is actually the hardest way on a push/pull instument. Moreover, chords are "modular" and can be re-used for your next song ;)
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george garside

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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2013, 12:30:59 PM »

speaking as a non singer ( was told to mime at school concerts!)  but one who regularly accompanies singers I am inclined to agree more or less with Chris, particularly the bit about being able to interchange at will  .

george
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deltasalmon

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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2013, 12:37:54 PM »

While I generally agree, this is a valid accompaniment, and a style not uncommon in the concertina fraternity. I too think chords are better, actually more "interesting" musically, the voice moves in and out of tension against the chord. It took me nearly 20 years to crack singing, partly learning chords, and partly that my voice didn't suit the chords that came with my D/G. I'd say "from here"

1. Well, and bravely done, be encouraged
2. Learn the right end chords, G, D, Em (on row)
    and C, Am, (Bm) across rows, experiment a bit …
3 Find a 'lick' that sounds good to you, basically one chord per bar (or two)
4. Get that playing, "without thought" if you know what I mean

You can then sing your song against that, as you would with guitar. The picked out tune you've worked up is not wasted. You can run bars of that instead of chords, after a while you will be able to interchange at will.  Similarly some standard chord swaps G|Em,  D|Bm can be experimented with, for interest.

Sorry if this reception feels deflating, but the method you've picked is actually the hardest way on a push/pull instument. Moreover, chords are "modular" and can be re-used for your next song ;)

The chord aspect of accompaniment I more or less understand. Do you have any tips for the rhythm aspect?

Are there any basic, cookie-cutter type accompaniment rhythms? (The equivalent of the D-D-U-U-D-U most guitarists first learn when beginning to strum chords)

EDIT: I often find myself trying by either just holding the chords down the length of the bar or trying to do a right hand "oom-pah" that ends up not sounding much like I was hoping for.
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Theo

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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2013, 01:23:56 PM »

The chord aspect of accompaniment I more or less understand. Do you have any tips for the rhythm aspect?

Are there any basic, cookie-cutter type accompaniment rhythms? (The equivalent of the D-D-U-U-D-U most guitarists first learn when beginning to strum chords)

EDIT: I often find myself trying by either just holding the chords down the length of the bar or trying to do a right hand "oom-pah" that ends up not sounding much like I was hoping for.

Less is more I think.  Guitarists have to put in a rhythm to keep a chord going, you can hold a chord, for more than one bar if you want.  I second the suggestion of concentrating on right hand cords.
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Malcolm Clapp

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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2013, 01:34:32 PM »


(BTW the song is not Irish as tagged on Soundcloud....


To (probably slightly) misquote Scottish/Australian singer/songwriter Eric Bogle:  "Any song containing the word "green", or any other word rhyming with the word "green", must now be considered an Irish song". And as the writer of that famous Irish song "The Green Fields of France", he should know.
The Furey's apparently told him so....   >:E >:E >:E

(Edited to apologise for thread drift.)

MC (with tongue firmly in cheek).
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 01:41:40 PM by Malcolm Clapp »
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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2013, 02:01:17 PM »

1. interchange at will takes about a year to build up fluency

2. Less is definitely more! One song I like is Metser's Shotover River (been there ;))
    I can sing to this (just) in D and use D, Bm, G, and A7 as basis, with a lot of sus
    chords, importantly all drawn from the reservoir of D diatonic notes. The song
     eats sus chords, and is utterly resistant to anything remotely "out" of scale.

    I sort of chew them, running arpeggios rather than whole chords, try to put
    in as large chunks of silence as I dare, but coming back to dum cha cha on
    the chorus if the room, or instruments "coming in" aren't on rhythm. if they
    are, I just let it flow. Simple is good in this. No one is really listening to the
    accompaniment after all. It's a song!

    I also played this at home for about a year before trying it in a session (in
    New Zealand)! It had to be different from Jones's iconic version, except
    that sus chords are built in ;) To do these incidentally: you generally just
    move middle finger of a right end chord to other row. I also play my A7 chord
    backwards, as push giving GAD = Gsus2. Then play my push basses of A, G or
    D against that to keep  "movement".  @Cooper: example of "wrong" bass use!
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Strigulino

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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2013, 03:07:27 PM »

Phew - well done!  I can't even TALK and play at the same time. 
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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2013, 04:11:15 PM »

I can add little to what has already been said about accompaniment by those who are better at it than me, but I do think that there is also value in learning to play the melody, which can be used in two ways: firstly as an instrumental break (probably with a bit of embellishment); and secondly because following the melody line for a couple of bars occasionally provides a bit of variety in the accompaniment.
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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2013, 07:06:07 PM »

Talk & play very much on my too hard list!

There has to be a structure there or my brain goes into overload
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BJG

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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2013, 09:25:58 PM »

As you work on a more chord-based accompaniment, it's also worth trying to break the habit of always singing on the beat.

Singing needs passion, empathy; you need to believe what you're talking about. It's like acting.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 09:28:36 PM by BJG »
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Anahata

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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2013, 09:55:56 PM »

The chord aspect of accompaniment I more or less understand. Do you have any tips for the rhythm aspect?

That song doesn't need a rhythmic accompaniment. If you use sustained chords, you just follow the natural timing of the way you sing the song. I suppose you could force it into a regular 3/4 but why? that's not apparently the way you sing it, though you might want to make the rhythm more regular for the chorus if you want an audience to join in.

My style for many songs, especially on a 1-row, is a sort of two part RH line, mostly thirds and 6ths, following the tune on the main notes (that define the underlying harmony) but missing out some of the notes in between - a sort of "out of focus" simplification of the tune, and digressing from the tune into a harmony especially where that enables a better harmony.

Also: find a little link phrase to play between verses. It can the the last line of the chorus (cheap and effective) but it's cleverer to make something up, better still make up two or three "link phrases" and use a different one each time.

Phew - well done!  I can't even TALK and play at the same time. 
That's MUCH harder!
(but can be done with practice. Apparently Bob Cann was able to hold a protracted conversation all the way though playing a tune)
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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2013, 10:00:48 PM »

I am almost certain that the melodeon is fairly unique in utilising the same part of the brain to put together it's push-pull-finger control-musicality as it does to implement grammar on language.

How else can one explain the inability to do anything linguistically other than shout out the odd word (sometimes in the wrong order) while playing?  This isn't only me - it seems to be quite common if not universal.

Singing a song you've learnt - on the other hand - is not quite so difficult as actually constructing sentences while playing.  If you simply learn to sing it as a part of the music I think it is not so hard.  Singing can be just like adding another hand - it completely bypasses the language centres of the brain.  But try to change the words at your peril!

Cheers

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boxcall

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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2013, 10:09:59 PM »

Thanks for the feed back!
And I "hear" what your saying and I do need to learn RH chords and just chords over all.
I can hear the change in the tune , but what that chord is ? maybe I should learn Guitar (sorry thread drift).
The song has been amended to folk on soundcloud , It's a nice song mister Connolly wrote ! his name sounds Irish ;D

Talk and play I can't do either.

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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2013, 10:49:08 PM »

Listen to Bob Roberts. He was a Master at this.  :|glug
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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2013, 09:29:50 AM »

I am almost certain that the melodeon is fairly unique in utilising the same part of the brain to put together it's push-pull-finger control-musicality as it does to implement grammar on language.

How else can one explain the inability to do anything linguistically other than shout out the odd word (sometimes in the wrong order) while playing?  This isn't only me - it seems to be quite common if not universal.

Singing a song you've learnt - on the other hand - is not quite so difficult as actually constructing sentences while playing.  If you simply learn to sing it as a part of the music I think it is not so hard.  Singing can be just like adding another hand - it completely bypasses the language centres of the brain.  But try to change the words at your peril!

It's actually really complex and the 'music' brain involves the whole cerebral cortex. Speech is channelled through a small area in the dominant hemisphere, and movement through a small strip in the pre-frontal gyrus. Also, we differ. I can't speak+play for toffee, Pignol can improvise and chatter as he does it. And (I started out as a singer) making up the odd word, even a rhyme, on the fly feels OK with me. Whereas Kirkpatrick, a manifestly better melodeonist famously hits the rocks when it comes to words.

btw I was sat next to Fred Jordon at one of John's first professional gigs, summer 1970.

   "Forget'n h's words! Oh arrrh, that young'n 'll never get anywhere"  ::)

[ed] Seen last night's other post. Before you call me pompous again, I do brain imaging
       for a living, and also am my department's speech therapy, and stroke liaison.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 09:36:40 AM by Chris Ryall »
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Helena Handcart

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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2013, 10:20:00 AM »

This year I've attempted singing and playing and have managed sort of ok (!)

Well, you had me fooled Alan. I've heard you play and sing a few times and it sounds good to me  (:)

Also glad to know I'm not the only one who loses the power of speech (some would say for the better in my case) when playing the box.
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Re: singing with the melodeon
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2013, 10:51:35 AM »

Singing and playing is a complex skill, but please, please don't let us get near the intricacies of swallow/speech control. Again, this is poorly understood, and a stoke in a totally separate, apparently unconnected part of the brain can 'upset' it, for no obvious reason, then it'll come OK again. 

What works for me is to lay down a 'pavement' of chords and then sing across that. As 'it comes good' other nuances, such as broken chording and bits of tune .. sort of evolve. But I'd advise that neither playing tune in unison, nor chording chording on the left end have worked for me. Both sound unacceptably 'wooden'. Others may differ ...     
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