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Author Topic: proper technique for using air button.  (Read 14556 times)

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ladydetemps

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2009, 10:06:24 AM »

I tend to count how many pushs/pulls there are and if there's more pushes start with bellows further out, and more pulls further in. In the attempt to avoid using the air button.

Lester

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2009, 10:18:21 AM »

I tend to count how many pushs/pulls there are and if there's more pushes start with bellows further out, and more pulls further in. In the attempt to avoid using the air button.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2009, 10:20:23 AM by Lester »
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ladydetemps

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2009, 10:21:20 AM »


I note from you video demoing your air button technique that you play the bass with 4 fingers, this is probably a really good thing but as you have discovered it requires the hand to be thrust much further through the strap to allow the pinkie to reach the inner row, this I think puts the air button too far back to be easily manipulated. Not sure how this helps.
Which is my BIG problem. I hate my short stumpy fingers. >:(

Chris Ryall

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2009, 10:39:26 AM »

I tend to count how many pushs/pulls there are and if there's more pushes start with bellows further out, and more pulls further in. In the attempt to avoid using the air button.
either direction.  And that bits of music that 'want' a G push chord will generally also work against Em pull.

There are other ways. Norbert Pignol in France plays so much on the 'pull' that you can hear it on his CD when he has to take a gulp. But he's playing 'impo', and in wierd keys. When Norbert plays French trad his style tends to push/pull balance,  just as our music does.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2009, 11:27:06 PM by chrisryall »
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ganderbox

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2009, 01:06:42 PM »

I always think of the air button as being a bit like the clutch on a car, and you need to be able to control the clutch to drive the car. Unlike a car, though, where "riding the clutch" is generally not a recommended, it is helpful if you can keep your thumb on the air button all the time, so that you can "slip" the air button as you are playing (as several others have mentioned). It's something that comes with practice. It's also less of a problem if you play a full sized box (say pokerwork size or bigger) as you don't run out of air so easily.
 
As Lester points out, keeping your thimb on that air button can sometimes be a problem. It's usually not too bad from top to bottom on an 8 bass, but the point about having to push your hand further through the strap to reach the inner row is very valid (and probably why until very recently I always played with just 2 fingers on the bass.) I still can't use the little finger on the inside row, however, because to reach it I end up too far from the air button, so I don't even try now, and just use basically 3 fingers, with sometimes the little one  on the G bass.

The shape of the air button helps too. Personally I find the ones that are just a rectangular bit of wood that you press in at the bottom are the easiest. It also helps if the air button has a light spring, because you don't want to have to be using any force to make it work. Also, some boxes just don't seem to have a big enough airhole, as it makes them feel very stiff and  difficult to play.
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Graham Collicutt

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2009, 04:11:36 PM »

to illistrate my point
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiT9jIWdEeg
grrr..

Hi
Looking at your video the base of your thumb is resting on ( or is close to)  the air button. Have you tried just using that?
You could extend the air button a little to make it easier.. You have to use base of thumb one row growl box.

Graham
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Ebor_fiddler

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2009, 09:36:34 PM »

Quote
Also, some boxes just don't seem to have a big enough airhole, as it makes them feel very stiff and  difficult to play.
This is a problem I have with my Scarlatti basic - is it possible to enlarge the airhole? Presumably I would need a bigger pallet though  ... ..  :-\
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I'm a Yorkie!
My other melodeon's a fiddle, but one of my Hohners has six strings! I also play a very red Hawkins Bazaar in C and a generic Klingenthaler spoon bass in F.!! My other pets (played) are gobirons - Hohner Marine Band in C, Hohner Tremolo in D and a Chinese Thingy Tremolo in G.

Chris Ryall

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2009, 11:31:00 PM »

This is a problem I have with my Scarlatti basic - is it possible to enlarge the airhole? Presumably I would need a bigger pallet though  ... ..  :-\

My new Gaillard has an airhole the size of Marlene Deitricht's mouth - and its lever moves down toward my feet rather than having to be pushed somehow into the woodwork. Sheer luxury!
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Stiamh

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2009, 11:48:13 PM »

I always think of the air button as being a bit like the clutch on a car, and you need to be able to control the clutch to drive the car.

I like this analogy. And like the clutches on different cars, the air valves on different boxes behave quite differently. Having developed a technique of using the air button constantly and unconsciously on a biggish 3-v box with a triangular lever that I find very easy to control, I'm finding it tricky adjusting to the air button on my 2-v Gaillard, which like Chris's, takes enormous gulps at the slightest touch. Bit like a clutch that has only a very short travel between completely engaged and completely disengaged, which needs much more control to achieve a smooth ride. Also, the lever that has to be pulled down is actually a whopping great button, which I find very awkward after the little pull-down knob on Hohners, mainly because the size suggests the type used on some Paolos and on Cairdins, which has to be pressed in not yanked down.

Like Pauline I've found using all four fingers on the basses of a 12-bass box to be all but impossible.

theSmoiler

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2009, 12:06:21 AM »


I note from you video demoing your air button technique that you play the bass with 4 fingers, this is probably a really good thing but as you have discovered it requires the hand to be thrust much further through the strap to allow the pinkie to reach the inner row, this I think puts the air button too far back to be easily manipulated. Not sure how this helps.
Which is my BIG problem. I hate my short stumpy fingers. >:(

I disagree, Lester, that in LDT's case, it is a good thing to play the bass with 4 fingers - I think it is one of her main problems, and possibly stems (though I'm not a concertina player) from trying to apply concertina-playing techniques to melodeon (and, incidentally, how many of us do use all 4 fingers on the basses?). I have seen LDT play and straight away advised that she was pushing her hand far too far through the bass strap, making the air button unworkable, and her hand and arm tense, on this account. I have also played her Beltuna Sara, and confirm that - for a person with small hands (and anyone who has ever tried to push their hand through the bass strap of my Oakwood would know about that...) it is perfectly easy to work the air button whilst playing all the basses with 3 fingers (as I do) without any undue stretch, etc. (witness the video she took of me doing so, on Youtube).

Neither is the Beltuna Sara at all 'air-hungry' in my opinion eg re. the size of the airhole - unlike the way that Saltarelle's can be. Rather, it plays like a dream from new (unlike my red Oakwood, which has never been an easy box to 'work', and has taken years of playing in to make the bellows move relatively easily).

LDT, you are tall and slim (far more so than I!) and I did not notice any particular shortness to your fingers/ hand (and, I am trained by my profession to notice such as physical anomalies). If they were truly 'stumpy', then they wouldn't end up 'clawed' over the top of the box when you play...However, it is normal to have the 4th finger significantly shorter than the other 3 - which gives rise to the problem....

(OT - I have noticed that the thumb and first 3 fingers, only, of my left hand are significantly ie by up to 1/4 inch, longer than those on the right. As a right-hander, I wonder if this is due to stretch developed imperceptively over the years through playing melodeon basses?).  

It is natural to find it tiring, awkward, difficult, even painful, etc., when doing any new manual activity using different muscle groups, etc. It just takes regular practice, familiarisation, repetition, proper technique, etc. before it becomes 'natural' and easy. Joining a morris side - perhaps a border one, with a fairly basic, easy-paced repetoire (as I did) - could provide this, as a good start point.

Diane
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Chris Ryall

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2009, 08:44:07 AM »

I'm a 4 finger bass person. Taught myself this very early on and I think it has been well worth it. 

My accident with the lawnmower (= crushed right index finger) freed up left hands 3-4-5 quite 'accidentally' Thought I had that sorted but then the polska I've just posted has a quadruplet involving litte finger - hard but its coming after a month or so

I think the line is the same one as ever - keep practicing. But always keep a thumb over the air button.
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ladydetemps

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2009, 09:07:13 AM »

I disagree, Lester, that in LDT's case, it is a good thing to play the bass with 4 fingers - I think it is one of her main problems, and possibly stems (though I'm not a concertina player) from trying to apply concertina-playing techniques to melodeon (and, incidentally, how many of us do use all 4 fingers on the basses?). I have seen LDT play and straight away advised that she was pushing her hand far too far through the bass strap, making the air button unworkable, and her hand and arm tense, on this account. I have also played her Beltuna Sara,
I've only just started playing octaves on LH on the concertina in the past month...before I just ignored the LH.

 
Quote
and confirm that - for a person with small hands (and anyone who has ever tried to push their hand through the bass strap of my Oakwood would know about that...) it is perfectly easy to work the air button whilst playing all the basses with 3 fingers (as I do) without any undue stretch, etc. (witness the video she took of me doing so, on Youtube).
wish I would have taken a video Close up of LH now so I could see closely what you were doing. :( (see there was a point to my 'filming')
When I only push my hand through how much you said I can't reach the C basses with top two fingers without sliding my hand down away from air button?? Maybe I should just give up ever reaching the basses nearer the bellows and just stick to the outside row?

Quote
Rather, it plays like a dream from new (unlike my red Oakwood, which has never been an easy box to 'work', and has taken years of playing in to make the bellows move relatively easily).
Sure you don't want to swap.... ;)

Quote
LDT, you are tall and slim (far more so than I!)
I dress to look slim....but I'm actually a size 14.  :o

Quote
(OT - I have noticed that the thumb and first 3 fingers, only, of my left hand are significantly ie by up to 1/4 inch, longer than those on the right. As a right-hander, I wonder if this is due to stretch developed imperceptively over the years through playing melodeon basses?).  
Hmm...maybe I need some finger stretches?

I'm just feeling so put off playing melodeon at the moment because I can't get LH right....if I can't get it right there's no good me practicing doing it wrong.  :'(
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 09:30:52 AM by ladydetemps »
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Howard Jones

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2009, 10:12:43 AM »

I don't agree that it's necessarily a good thing to use 4 fingers for the basses.  If you can manage it, fine, but in LDT's case it seems to be hampering her from using the air button.  The C chords can be a long stretch for the little finger, especially if you have small hands. 

Like many, I'm self-taught, without even the benefit of learning materials, and for me it was instinctive to use just three fingers on the left hand.  Many others do the same (including, I notice from his DVD, John Spiers).  Some even manage to play fluent bass with just 2 fingers.

My point is that use of the air button is essential to control the instrument fully. If LDT, or anyone else, finds that their left-hand style prevents them from reaching the air button, then they need to reconsider how they play left-hand, and not be swayed by advice that 4 fingers must be best.  The alternative is to physically alter the instrument to make the air button more accessible, but if you rely on this then you may have a problem changing to another instrument.

My own approach is to play three-fingered bass and ride the air-button most of the time, and usually this is done unconsciously -  I only have to think about it when a particularly large movement is required.  However I also use bellows reversals and cross-rowing to minimise these, where possible and where appropriate to the music



Ellie

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2009, 12:23:57 PM »

Something that has just occurred to me is that when I started playing, I made the fatal mistake of not incorporating the basses right from the beginning. However, this did mean that I got used to using the air button, and just held the L hand buttons without using them. Perhaps it's worth practising some tunes like that to get the hang of a suitable position and then bringing the basses in again?

ladydetemps

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2009, 12:30:54 PM »

Erm...I know this is an obvious question..but I've never thought to ask this before...but do you push n pull with the left or right?
because when my fingers rest on buttons and I push in with LH or pull I end up pressing down said buttons.

Ellie

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2009, 12:35:37 PM »

Left, but the pressing of fingers should be completely independent from the pushing and pulling, otherwise you'll have no end of trouble! You should be able to rest the fingers on the buttons without pressing them...

ladydetemps

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2009, 12:59:13 PM »

Anyway I guess you can look forward to some good (literally) hands-on advice at Witney, even though this is still some weeks away. So don't be too despondent.
I'm going to bring a roll of sellotape....and then get my hand taped into position so it don't move. :-[

Theo

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2009, 01:19:07 PM »

Anyway I guess you can look forward to some good (literally) hands-on advice at Witney, even though this is still some weeks away. So don't be too despondent.
I'm going to bring a roll of sellotape....and then get my hand taped into position so it don't move. :-[



But be prepared to tape them in different positions until you find what is comfortable for you.
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george garside

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2009, 01:26:02 PM »

no set rules as to how many fingers should be used to play bass - in fact no set rules for anything on a melodeon! - .If 2 work fine use 2 , theres still a great deal less moving about to do than on a stradella system i.e. 2 fingers for 8 buttons as against 4 (or 3 for many players) fo ranything up to 120 buttons.

The division of labour (left hand) is wrist for bellows movement, fingrs to play bass & thumb for airbutton. For this all to wrk smooothly it is impportant that the left hand strap (bass strap) is set so that hand can be well through & fingers curved in sort of U shape to hit buttons with finger tips,  also that strap is not too tight so that wrist can slide up & down slightly if necessary.  
the amount that the hand is through the strap ( I prefer sstrap to be roughly where a watch would be if you were wearing one)  can also have a considerable bearing on  the position of the thumb ( or part thereof) relative to the air button.


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ladydetemps

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Re: proper technique for using air button.
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2009, 01:54:09 PM »

Anyway I guess you can look forward to some good (literally) hands-on advice at Witney, even though this is still some weeks away. So don't be too despondent.
I'm going to bring a roll of sellotape....and then get my hand taped into position so it don't move. :-[



But be prepared to tape them in different positions until you find what is comfortable for you.
Hmmm...masking tape might be better then. I don't think it will ever be 'comfortable' just looking for least uncomfortable.

left hand strap (bass strap) is set so that hand can be well through & fingers curved in sort of U shape to hit buttons with finger tips, 
I find that hard to visualise...any chance of a photo demonstrating?

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