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Author Topic: Open 5th Tuning  (Read 3914 times)

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Mike Hirst

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Open 5th Tuning
« on: October 13, 2013, 09:35:15 PM »

Having spent the past six months working with an eight bass two row instrument, limited to just four sets of Bass/open fifth unisonoric pairs, I am becoming increasingly concerned with the voicing of the thirdless chords.

Much of the time I am structuring right/left combinations to create full chord voicings. e.g. G5 left hand (G + D) with B in the rh gives a G major triad; the same lh pair with Bb gives G minor; B + F gives G7.

This process can be continued to create ever more distant harmonies. The same G + D lh combined can be combined with rh notes to give a very satisfactory GM7 Em7 EbM7 G6 progression.

As I travel further down this road I am increasingly aware of the differing qualities produced through left/right chord voicings. In particular I am concerned with the strident differences produced through the arbitrary designation of fifth and fourth voicings created through the removal of thirds in left hand chords and the implications this has for resulting left/right chord combinations.

I am considering the idea that rather than settling for the unconsidered fifth/fourth remnants of thirdless chords it would be more fruitful to structure left hand notes to give open fifths on all chord buttons.

Does anyone have experience of this? Are there negating factors which would deny this pursuit?
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Rog

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2013, 10:52:53 PM »

So..um..you don't have any thirds in your left hand chords?

Mike Hirst

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2013, 11:58:34 PM »

So..um..you don't have any thirds in your left hand chords?

No. It's a flexible arrangement.
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forrest

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2013, 02:37:47 AM »

...... In particular I am concerned with the strident differences produced through the arbitrary designation of fifth and fourth voicings created through the removal of thirds in left hand chords and the implications this has for resulting left/right chord combinations.

Mike, I cannot get my sluggish mental processes to fathom what is meant here. An audio sample is worth at least a 1000 words  (:)


« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 02:47:32 AM by forrest »
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LDbosca

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2013, 02:43:30 AM »

...... In particular I am concerned with the strident differences produced through the arbitrary designation of fifth and fourth voicings created through the removal of thirds in left hand chords and the implications this has for resulting left/right chord combinations.

Mike, I cannot get my sluggish mental processes to fathom what is meant here. An audio sample is worth at least a 1000 words  (:)

I think it means that, because of the inversions sometimes used on the chord button (maybe a full G chord is in the 2nd in version and goes D, G B), sometimes the open chord left when the third is removed is an open fourth instead of a fifth. And, I think mike's suggesting that consistent open fifths would be better...?

forrest

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2013, 02:48:01 AM »

Oops, I missed the word 'unisonoric', which would be limiting in a certain way.
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2013, 09:03:36 AM »

I think it means that, because of the inversions sometimes used on the chord button (maybe a full G chord is in the 2nd in version and goes D, G B), sometimes the open chord left when the third is removed is an open fourth instead of a fifth. And, I think mike's suggesting that consistent open fifths would be better...?

That's exactly what I was struggling to articulate.

playing the three notes G C F, with G as the lowest note and F on top has a very different feel to F C G with F as the lowest note, with the G on top.

similarly the same three notes played F G C and C F G would imply either an Fsus2 chord, or Csus4.

I would like to have more control over over right/left chord voicings. I am wondering if an effective solution would be to set all left hand chords as perfect fifths, rather than as a seemingly arbitrary collection of fifths and fourths.
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Anahata

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2013, 09:40:14 AM »

I am wondering if an effective solution would be to set all left hand chords as perfect fifths, rather than as a seemingly arbitrary collection of fifths and fourths.

In Luke's description of chords including various inversions, I assume the logic is to keep the overall pitch of the chords within a narrow range; in fact you can contain them all within one octave in this way. I suspect this is done because the chords would sound every inconsistent in overall pitch if they were all (for example) root triads.

The same would apply to bare fifths. The compass of notes could be an octave and a fifth, whereas if you allow a mixture of fourths and fifths the compass is only an octave.

On one of my D/G boxes, though, the two D chords are different and if you take the thirds out one makes a fourth and the other makes a fifth. I've never understood that.
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Owen Woods

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2013, 09:55:21 AM »

Probably because the more natural inversion of D when playing in G is the first inversion, which when you take the F# out would produce AD, rather than DA?
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george garside

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2013, 10:12:09 AM »

perhaps tapping the bass 7 chord buttons very lightly would  reduce the offending sounds!

george
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2013, 10:14:44 AM »

It is clear that we are all talking about the same thing here. I can see that there are logical reasons for keeping left hand triads within the same octave. My point is that there is a distinct and significant difference between the same two note voiced as a fourth and as a fifth. Further to my previous posting I have attached two mp3 files, which I hope will demonstrate this.

In my own situation I only have four thirdless chords on the left hand side - E5, A5, D5 and G5. Voiced as open fifths that would result in a span of an octave+1. Requiring only DEGABde, or some equivalent combination starting at any point in that sequence.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2013, 10:36:55 AM »

All my left chords are in 5ths,  I have 12 buttons, 10 different "5" chords due to duplications. The rest of a Grenoble 18 bass is bass note reversals and missing notes. It ends up as choice of 12 basses v 10 chords; yes, some are painful (in both senses ;))  This only gets you so far … 10 sus chords, 10 maj7 effects, 10 min7 effects all with tonic centre from the bass in use. That's to say some aren't useful in play.

You cannot get a 7 chord from this, except as an inversion. Similarly the b5 tritone dominant comes best as simply playing eg A/Eb basses together. These are by definition chords of tension, and the musical line "wants" to move on, it works! Like Mike I dot in eg Bb against G triad on the other end to get G7, diminished chords are basically voiced on the right end.

My Gaillard is in GC, vdA in DG. in both it looks like an attempt has ben made to voice "full" chord as low as possible, that is both T and 5 as low as is feasible reed-wise. As I see it this means both notes are taken from the same low octave. Some become 4thdownTonic, some Tonic5thup!  There are more of these inversions on the CG; originally I thought this a Gaillardism, but I suspect it has more to do with overlap of the underlying diatonic scales with the bass reeds Binci can supply.

Yes, it does make some "crossed" or rt-hand-extended chords work well, others not so well, as Mike describes. Also some "same shape" combos that work on one box are not so sweet on the other.

Logically, to get consistency, you would voice all left end as T+5. The result of that would be a saddle point; if you played your chords 'in order' they would rise evenly, then suddenly drop an octave. The inversions seem to be a compromise to achieve a more even set of dum/cha chords.

As Mike has found, the inverts are less favourable for cross chording … you pays yer money, you takes yer choice? I quite enjoy having boxes that work differently, but there is an alternative view, and I did get them made to "same layout", perhaps that was a mistake?
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2013, 10:39:56 AM »

....I suspect this is done because the chords would sound every inconsistent in overall pitch if they were all (for example) root triads.
Yes, you are correct. When working on the prototype Manfrini D/G box a couple of years ago, I mistakenly specified all the LH chords in root position. The layout as received still wasn't quite that but nevertheless it sounded baaaad. :(  In particular the root position G major chord was too low and growly; and the root position Em chord was too high and unbalanced against the rest of the instrument.

The instrument was returned to have some new reed plates fitted and this time it was fine. I documented the changes, which you can see in the attached pdf. The lower half of the diagram shows the satisfactory, final, voicing of the chords. Incidentally, this is exactly the same as the Castagnari factory standard, which always sounds lovely to my ears. 
 

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Chris Ryall

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2013, 10:42:55 AM »

Steve seems to be saying same thing, different way. I think our instrument may have been intended by God to play chord/bass together, and that cross-fingering and other such constructs are an afterthought … though i do like them ;)
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2013, 10:43:30 AM »

perhaps tapping the bass 7 chord buttons very lightly would  reduce the offending sounds!

george

There is nothing offensive here. I am merely seeking a more logical sequencing of notes.

The attached file takes a typical modal sequence, moving from Am to G and back again. In the first instance the notes are voiced as a combination of fourths and fifths. This is followed by the same sequence voiced using only fifths. Although neither voicing is less valid, I would prefer to have only fifths.
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2013, 10:47:18 AM »

Chris/Steve - useful insight from two very different opinions. Anyone else care to throw thier cap into the ring?
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Owen Woods

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2013, 10:53:26 AM »

There may be some benefit in terms of reed response to have unisonoric plates, i.e. have the D the same pitch on the G/D chord, the B the same pitch on the B/Em chord, the A the same pitch on the DA chord. And there may be some benefit in having that shared note as low as possible. Perhaps?
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2013, 10:55:04 AM »

Does that really get round the strictly ascending, versus even voicing divide in this?
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Owen Woods

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2013, 11:06:54 AM »

It's just another thing to think about. But I think that there is a problem with always having I+V chords, in that it doesn't sound "natural". The thing to do would be to pick inversions that a) make playing in particular keys sound natural and b) have as many unisonoric plates as possible as low as possible. Steve's Manfrini layout fulfils that.
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Open 5th Tuning
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2013, 11:09:44 AM »

mulling over the useful contributions from other forum members I think I've answered my own question.

Sitting at the piano I limited myself to using only this sequence of notes:

DEGABde

I played different combinations of open fifths mimicking typical modal patterns. parallel pairs are effective. e.g.:

E5 D5 and A5 G5 (typical minor or mixolydian progression)

II V I is less effective. e.g.:

A5 D5 G5 (Am7 D7 Gmaj7 or similar)

The problem here is the leap from A5 to G5. This can be avoided by shifting the left hand chord sequence up or down, but this will always create another awkward I V leap. There is always going to be a split point. I guess it's something that we have to learn to live with.

The next question has to be in respect of recent experiments made by some prominent Irish players using only thirds in the left hand. Are these all voiced  with the root at the bottom and the third at the top, or are sixth inversions used as well?
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