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[forrest]

I think Chris is correct, that the body of the piece is in Bb. How they would do this on a G/C box is beyond my feeble comprehension, unless they are masterfully using heaps of accidentals. I have tried this on my G/C Pokerwork, and it's all I can do to even match a note here or there. The minor section drifts into F minor, with F min, Bmin and Cmaj chords (roughly).
   If I try it in home keys on one of my three row boxes, I find I can play almost through the phrases on the pull! And, also some chords that seem like pretty good approximations, considering there are six less basses available. Haven't tackled the minor part, though. Leads me to speculate that they might be playing Bb/Eb boxes here.
   Also, when tallship's abc's are crunched through the converter, the resultant notation shows it scored in G............. Mysteries ? ?

[Roland Carson]

I went to see Naragonia with a friend in London and we listened and danced to them for the evening. We spoke to them afterwards and they told me which tuning their boxes were..... but .... I have forgotten  ....I blame my age  ...however, I think I remember that they have the Dutch reversal button. They played this tune and we watched the dance with interest but no knowledge.
You can see it here at 18.13....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bVjOlXX7uM&list=FLQESgHnu7MdmhhbFzpYPBzQ

Incidentally Dave Shepherd from Blowzabella has been talking about this dance recently and I have seen several different versions from the videos he put links to.

Roland

[Chris Ryall]

Pascale taught using a G/C/accs when she came to Warfedale 2 years ago

there was no "other" box on stage when we danced this one earlier in the year at Sheffield, nor on the video above. I think it's just fine technique, they are professional musicians and teachers after all. Anyway, just found I've got all the note, and chords on my C#D/G(!) and that's an extra sharp. Yes it is 18 bass, almost standard in Belgium nowadays.

[forrest]

Pascale taught using a G/C/accs when she came to Warfedale 2 years ago

there was no "other" box on stage when we danced this one earlier in the year at Sheffield, nor on the video above. I think it's just fine technique, they are professional musicians and teachers after all. Anyway, just found I've got all the note, and chords on my C#D/G(!) and that's an extra sharp. Yes it is 18 bass, almost standard in Belgium nowadays.

You may well be correct, Chris. There is no doubt of their talent and skill, but after watching/listening to all of the tunes on Roland's video link, there's some evidence (to my mind) that they might have F/Bb/Eb boxes.

[**DTN**]

And Chris and I 'murdered' it out in the Bb ish key on our CF's with Accs  so i suppose we were either clever  or its as easy ... cough!!! in that key !
Haven't got a GC with Accs anymore so can't try it out!

[Pete Dunk]

Also, when tallship's abc's are crunched through the converter, the resultant notation shows it scored in G............. Mysteries ? ?

tallship used artistic license and filtered it through a D/G box. Probably the wrong thing to do!!! I would simply post Toon's .gif here for all to take from it what they will but I stupidly forgot to ask if that was okay and I'm less than inclined to presume upon Toon's good nature enough to go back and ask!

Pete.

[forrest]

And Chris and I 'murdered' it out in the Bb ish key on our CF's with Accs  so i suppose we were either clever  or its as easy ... cough!!! in that key !
Haven't got a GC with Accs anymore so can't try it out!

And masterfully done! 

tallship used artistic license and filtered it through a D/G box. Probably the wrong thing to do!!! I would simply post Toon's .gif here for all to take from it what they will but I stupidly forgot to ask if that was okay and I'm less than inclined to presume upon Toon's good nature enough to go back and ask!

Pete.

Oops! 

[waltzman]

In an email from Pascale a year or so ago she said she was using G/C/acc Heim layout.

[forrest]

In an email from Pascale a year or so ago she said she was using G/C/acc Heim layout.

 

Hmm...just looked up G/C/acc possibilities...think I'll crawl back to my cave and study for a while 

[Chris Ryall]

There are two Heim layouts. When I had a go up in Chalap 8 years ago François had "own accs" and a dutch inversion on the C row. Latterly I see "Heim 2" layouts on French internet, this seems to have standard pattern G/C rows.  I wondered at the time if he had changed to assist teaching, that's a major part of his living.

i sort of assume that Naragonia boxes will have the inversion, perhaps learned at their mother's knee (?) but I haven't formally asked. It is deeply efficient: having those reverse A/G helpers on the main row frees space for 50% (!) more accidentals, allowing things like Bb and Eb both ways

So "if" that's the case they might have a fluency in Bb that engelanders could only dream of. Emphasise this is all a bit speculative! But they are in that key. Both have 18 bass, so chording there will be OK, except that they seem to be doing extended right hand chords for each other … It's beautiful.

[Cooper]

Pascale taught using a G/C/accs when she came to Warfedale 2 years ago

there was no "other" box on stage when we danced this one earlier in the year at Sheffield, nor on the video above. I think it's just fine technique, they are professional musicians and teachers after all. Anyway, just found I've got all the note, and chords on my C#D/G(!) and that's an extra sharp. Yes it is 18 bass, almost standard in Belgium nowadays.

You may well be correct, Chris. There is no doubt of their talent and skill, but after watching/listening to all of the tunes on Roland's video link, there's some evidence (to my mind) that they might have F/Bb/Eb boxes.

I am pretty sure it is G/C/acc they play. Definitely not 3-quintboxes. And Toon just mentioned to me that he was interested in buying a F/Bb/acc, so i am guessing he doesnt have one yet.
W

[Clive Williams]

There are two Heim layouts. When I had a go up in Chalap 8 years ago François had "own accs" and a dutch inversion on the C row. Latterly I see "Heim 2" layouts on French internet, this seems to have standard pattern G/C rows.  I wondered at the time if he had changed to assist teaching, that's a major part of his living.

i sort of assume that Naragonia boxes will have the inversion, perhaps learned at their mother's knee (?) but I haven't formally asked. It is deeply efficient: having those reverse A/G helpers on the main row frees space for 50% (!) more accidentals, allowing things like Bb and Eb both ways

The other day I mapped out the Heim (without inversion) and Heim No1 (with inversion), translating them to D/G/Acc notation (can't get my head round Solfage, sorry!) - see here: http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,13554.msg167476.html#msg167476

Treat them with a pinch of salt; there's probably a few typos with octaves in particular, but they are D/G/Acc translations of the note layouts available on the Maison de l'Accordeon site. The beauty of the inversion and the Milleret Pignol is that they remove the duplicate note on the pull, meaning you have 12 'slots' for notes on the pull before the pattern repeats for the next octave 4 buttons up... so you can be fully chromatic on the pull, with consistent fingering across the octaves. With conventional D/G rows, you have to miss one note out to account for the fact that E takes up 2 slots. On the push of course, because the octave pattern repeats every 3 notes rather than every 4 on the pull, you can't be chromatic in the same way no matter what you do.

[zubz]

The other day I mapped out the Heim (without inversion) and Heim No1 (with inversion), translating them to D/G/Acc notation (can't get my head round Solfage, sorry!) - see here: http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,13554.msg167476.html#msg167476

That is REALLY helpful ... thank you Clive! 

[bellmartin]

Naragonia's performance of Les deux frères could make people fall in love or give hope to those in despair.

Are those Handrys? One thing I love is the balance between treble and bass on the instruments. Is that due to the instruments, or to their skill as players?

Agreed that the silence, the negative space, really speaks. That should be simple to do, but it isn't.

What tuning (dry, wet, etc.) would you call what they're using in the video?

[Chris Ryall]

I like Bb minor, or at least the pentatonic version. It is the most fluid blues scale on my C#/G rows and very useful of you get in amongst clarinets, or (god forbid) saxophones. It is written that all jazz jams will eventually degenerate into blues in Bb…

Lots of stuff in Fm to, notably herb Handcock's "watermelon man". A true classic. You might perhaps perhaps be playing with too many fiddles?

[Ollie]

Can I change the question for a mo' and ask "why" rather than "how?"

My Naragonia tune book has eg Jean Sucre in 5flats - Bbminor leading in to La Minute in 4flats - Fminor.
Now why would you want to do that given that Aminor and Eminor are only a semitone away and natural choices for a G/C/acc box??
Does anyone here play in those keys - and do they have any friends?
Could it be another instrument - bagpipes?
Or is it the Mt Everest answer?
By extension would a good place to start be transposing software?

Different keys have different characters. Ab maj has a completely different feel to G maj, in the same way that Bbmin has a different feel to Am. I wrote a tune on my D/G box that had an A part in Em, with a B part in E maj. I've tried it in Am/Amaj, which would seem the obvious choice for a D/G, or Dm/Dmaj, but it just doesn't sound right.

See this previous thread - http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,11373.0.html

[Steve_freereeder]

Naragonia's performance of Les deux frères could make people fall in love or give hope to those in despair.

Totally agree. I think this is one of the loveliest examples of melodeon playing I have ever seen/heard.

Are those Handrys? One thing I love is the balance between treble and bass on the instruments. Is that due to the instruments, or to their skill as players?

Yes, all of that. The instruments are both the 'Big' Handry 18. Very fine instruments indeed (heavy, though!) and superbly designed and set up as far as balance is concerned. Also the recording set up is very good too.

Agreed that the silence, the negative space, really speaks. That should be simple to do, but it isn't.

It's definitely a technique well worth acquiring. It's a combination of releasing the bellows pressure, bringing it to a stop not completely abruptly and releasing the fingers from the buttons at the same time, so that the sound 'dies' in a rapid diminuendo, rather than instantaneously. It needs a real feel for how the reeds on your particular instrument speak, and working with them to achieve that effect. Another player who made great use of it was Stephane Delicq:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnAB3sCm7Bg

What tuning (dry, wet, etc.) would you call what they're using in the video?

It sounds very much like standard Castagnari factory tuning, generally described as a 'light swing'. The instruments are three-voice, LMM, with switches behind the keyboard to control the voices. At 2:46 you can see Toon flick his thumb to operate one of the switches to change the voicing from MM to LMM or more likely LM - it's hard to tell with the basic tuning being such a light tremolo.

[Chris Ryall]

Naragonia's performance of Les deux frères could make people fall in love or give hope to those in despair.

Totally agree. I think this is one of the loveliest examples of melodeon playing I have ever seen/heard

Musically, absolutely. But gavotte (in lines of 4) will never be … quite as sexy as the mazurka. Delicq was hard to beat on that, but this duo do pretty well. Again it is more about timing than notes

btw Castagnari tuning gets called "demi-swing" in France.

[Chris Ryall]

Quote "Different keys have different characters."  - which is why Morris is such a monochrome world I guess. Interesting comments tho' - shame they don't address the OP's question.
Quote "Lots of stuff in Fm to, notably herb Handcock's "watermelon man".  ....Eh???...Wo'...

Goodness me, patronised twice - and no sign of help for the OP. Rather than trying to "Grade8" the opposition why don't people use their undoubted skills to help the less experienced?

sorry if you felt in any way patronised, but you did ask explicitly  "does anyone here play in those keys"

If I were being brittle …  "and do they have any friends"?    I'll let ollie answer for himself, but would repeat that Bb blues is actually the easiest such scale on C#D setup, F just a bit harder. (whereas G is an absolute pig)

[Ollie]

I wasn't trying to 'Grade 8' the opposition (I don't even have Grade 5 theory) at all, I was trying to answer your question as Chris said. People play in different keys because each key has a different character. Try playing something like The Blackthorn Stick in G, and then play it in A, and notice how much brighter it sounds. Generally, the more sharps the key has, the brighter it will sound, and the more flats it has, the more subdued it will sound. I have no idea why, it's just the way that the brain interprets different sounds I guess.

Having said all that, serialist composer Arnold Schoenberg is often quoted as saying 'there is plenty more good music to be written in C major'.

Morris is a monochromatic world because people don't musicality to its full effect when playing for dancing, but that's another completely different topic, so I will say no more!