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Author Topic: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems  (Read 15481 times)

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Anahata

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #60 on: December 17, 2013, 05:48:05 PM »

if with stradella you can't stretch to a nearby bass to use as a counterbass, isn't there a snag with some counterbasses often needing to be minor thirds?

Minor thirds are closer on the main bass row, three buttons away vs. four in the opposite direction for the major third and easily accessible with little finger if you want to use it with the minor chord. Also you do sometimes have to make big jumps on the basses (a semitone change is almost the worst and quite common, e.g. from F to E) but while an occasional jump like that can be done, counterbasses make melodic bass runs far easier. Given a free choice of options for a single extra row of bass notes, the major third is probably the best choice. For example, the leading note of the scale is on an adjacent counterbass in the current scheme, and that's also useful.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #61 on: December 17, 2013, 06:23:25 PM »

I hope you all don't mind me posing these questions, but as a complete stradella virgin, lots of them occur to me:

1. If the general idea is to use the LH stradella system with a DGAcc RHS, then there's obviously little point in putting in seldom-used chords, around the 'home keys'.  So can you cut down on the 'all things to all men' traditional stradella? (Because LHS weight could easily be the concept killer.)

2.  And if so, how, specifically?  I imagine you could have all 12 bass notes, but cut out some of the chord accompaniments at the edges - but could you still play the bass notes effectively?

3. Are the stradella voices and reeds identical with a 'rectangular' bass system?

4. If not, what's different? 

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Mike Hirst

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2013, 06:32:19 PM »

Giustozzi build a four voice, two row, 18 button bass instrument for players in Finland:

http://www.giustozzi.it/ws/index.php?route=product/product&path=24_54&product_id=160

quoted weight 5.4kg
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 07:01:00 PM by Mike Hirst »
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Anahata

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2013, 06:48:52 PM »

1. If the general idea is to use the LH stradella system with a DGAcc RHS, then there's obviously little point in putting in seldom-used chords, around the 'home keys'.  So can you cut down on the 'all things to all men' traditional stradella? (Because LHS weight could easily be the concept killer.)
You could, but as you'd have all the reeds there anyway, the saving in weight would be negligible. Unlike melodeon basses, Stradella has a set of 12 chord reeds and each chord is made by mechanically selecting the right combination of three reeds (maybe four for a 7th chord). Also the idea of D/G/Acc is to be able temporarily to escape into remote keys or harmonies and I doubt there's many chords you can leave out anyway for that.

If you want to minimise the weight of a Stradella bass, go for 12 x 4 bass. It's got everything you need, unless you must have diminished chords.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 06:50:59 PM by Anahata »
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2013, 07:52:15 PM »

This is all too good to be true!  Surely there's a snag?  Otherwise, why would almost everyone have gone down the rectangular bass pattern route for the DGAcc system?
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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2013, 08:17:35 PM »

Because when it is just 8 bass it is almost an automatic harmony, with Stradella there is more to learn.
Personally if considering a change if bass I would go for something like the Serafini 24 bass. Unisonoric, chromatic, 12 bass and 12 neutral chords.
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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2013, 08:29:44 PM »

This is all too good to be true!  Surely there's a snag?  Otherwise, why would almost everyone have gone down the rectangular bass pattern route for the DGAcc system?

There is still the point mentioned earlier in the thread that the stradella bass just sounds different and is not easy to get a 'punchy' articulation from it as from the melodeon bass.
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squeezy

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2013, 08:40:00 PM »

That's right ... as far as I can tell you lose that power and directness of the melodeon type left hand sound for a variety of reasons.  But basically a normal melodeon bass reed has a more simple and faster mechanism, a more direct route through to the outside world, and in general the reeds are less cluttered and I reckon because they are grouped in fifths and thirds - there is more sympathetic resonance in a melodeon bass system.

In short - a stradella bass system has to work exceptionally well to come close to what we expect as melodeon players - whereas some cheaper melodeons can have a left hand that sounds mighty.
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squeezy

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #68 on: December 17, 2013, 08:58:02 PM »

1. If the general idea is to use the LH stradella system with a DGAcc RHS, then there's obviously little point in putting in seldom-used chords, around the 'home keys'.  So can you cut down on the 'all things to all men' traditional stradella? (Because LHS weight could easily be the concept killer.)
You could, but as you'd have all the reeds there anyway, the saving in weight would be negligible. Unlike melodeon basses, Stradella has a set of 12 chord reeds and each chord is made by mechanically selecting the right combination of three reeds (maybe four for a 7th chord). Also the idea of D/G/Acc is to be able temporarily to escape into remote keys or harmonies and I doubt there's many chords you can leave out anyway for that.

If you want to minimise the weight of a Stradella bass, go for 12 x 4 bass. It's got everything you need, unless you must have diminished chords.

Exactly!  In fact with a slightly more restricted 12 x 4 stradella you can fudge diminished, major seventh, minor seventh using the good old-fashioned melodeon player's approach of mixing a bass note with a different chord (or 2 chords) ... I've also taken to playing in the minor using the counterbass note along with the major chord 3 semitones up to make a very melodeon-ey sounding chord (e.g A counter bass with C major chord which falls nicely under the fingers) - I've found this to work really well for fingering as well as making a sound distinctly less like a PA!

Really I think this should be the minimum though - the counter basses are really important ... and there's no point in it being non-chromatic on the left hand as it will not save you any weight at all.

My one thought (which I haven't done yet!) would be to shift the reeds around in the blocks on the left hand such that the centre of the stradella system is D or G rather than C as it always is as standard.  This would gear the instrument more to the "home" keys without losing any of the notes.

So instead of:

Db Ab Eb Bb F C* G D A E B F# - * being the dimpled button in the middle

it would be:

Eb Bb F C G D* A E B F# C# G# - if centred around D

or

Ab Eb Bb F C G* D A E B F# C# - if centred around G (which would be my preference)

It is a very easy re-waxing job on any stradella bass to do this.  And although the benefits are slight - I think they are worth looking at.
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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #69 on: December 17, 2013, 09:50:45 PM »

Quote
Personally if considering a change if bass I would go for something like the Serafini 24 bass. Unisonoric, chromatic, 12 bass and 12 neutral chords.

Theo, can you amplify?  The translation of Marc's website explanation isn't that easy to understand (http://www.la-baf.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=84:lencyclodeon-1&catid=51&Itemid=50#encyclo2) but as I understand it, his Darwin is a new stradella variation, with unisonoric basses, but bisonoric neutral chords?  It looks like a whole new ball game.
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Owen Woods

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #70 on: December 17, 2013, 10:17:51 PM »

Personally if considering a change if bass I would go for something like the Serafini 24 bass. Unisonoric, chromatic, 12 bass and 12 neutral chords.

Same here. I will do a blog post on the Darwin system in the New Year. It's a system which should work well.
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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #71 on: December 17, 2013, 10:29:50 PM »

John, must apologise for being very slow on the uptake - I've only just realised your Lucia isn't BCC#.  Which means I have just gone back and reread your earlier comments in a completely new light! And I now see the relevance of your re-centring the LHS on G clearly. What's your acc row?
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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2013, 10:41:54 PM »

looking at the original post, my humble view is that the d/g system with accidentals does not compare/relate to other systems, unless it's just a straight transposition thing, like c/f with accs or a/d etc..
the b/c/c+ box, particularly with stradella support is a different animal and those who can play it likely underestimate their own skills.
if I could cross row on a d/g, i would select accidentals to suit me/my preferences, but keep a straight d/g box to remind me (and my brain/fingers) of where i'm coming from. stradella basses sound very different to my ear, as does a b note on push or pull.
the chromatic box is where it ends up.  :-\
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squeezy

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2013, 12:12:38 AM »

Hi Chris ... this is what I have on my right hand ...



It is great for playing outside the home keys in the more simple keys such as F, C, A, E, Gm, Dm, Bm F#m, Bb, Eb
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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #74 on: December 18, 2013, 07:41:37 AM »

Just an aside...

Please can someone enlarge on the 'Italian reed numbers' designation on Squeezy's diagram?

I can guess what it means -
C4 (middle C) = reed no. 15
C#4 = reed no. 16
D4 = reed no. 17
D#4/Eb4 = reed no. 18

and so on...

I can see the value of it - e.g. being able specify exactly what pitch the reed tongues on a reed plate must be when ordering reeds from manufacturers or when ordering a custom voicing of chords. But how universal is this system? Do all reed/instrument manufacturers use this system? What about Hohner?
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #75 on: December 18, 2013, 08:56:02 AM »

Wow, thanks Squeezy, that takes the debate to a whole new level!  You've clearly gone a long way forward in your thinking of adding playability in new keys.  And you've gone 'flatwards' (I notice particularly that there's no push G#, which would have perhaps indicated a more 'sharpwards' direction).

Would I be right in saying that you've recognised that some of the reversals are no longer a priority with unisonoric basses, but you've also kept the basic 3-push/4-pull concept for the acc row, adding a few extra notes at the row ends to help?  I also notice the missing low E pull on the G row, presumably because you use the D row E pull nearby (as I guess many Hohner players with end-row accidentals learned to do automatically.)
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 08:59:10 AM by Chris Brimley »
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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #76 on: December 18, 2013, 09:27:42 AM »

As an aside, and just in case some people don't see why 'airspring' physics should apply to them, can I commend this simple experiment:

1.  Take a quint box with a D and a G row, at minimum.

2.  Play the first two bars of 'Soldier's Joy' in D, on the D row only, with a nice and jumpy D push bass and chord.  You will be probably playing this, push only:

/A F# D F# A F# D F# /A - D x D ---/
/V ------------------ /V - V x V ---/

3.  Give it the best rhythmic feel you can, separating the notes as cleanly as possible, and using left arm emphasis as much as you can.

4.  Now change the fingering so that in the first bar, you play all the F#'s and D's on the G row instead (easy, it's the same button, but it may take a minute or two to get the timing right).  Keep the LH the same.  You will now be playing:

/A F# D F# A F# D F# /A - D x D ---/
/V ^  V  ^  V  ^ V  ^ /V - V x V ---/

5.  Enjoy.

6.  Experiment a bit - try opening the bellows to the place that seems to give you the nicest bouncy feel.

7.  Watch the dancers.

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squeezy

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #77 on: December 18, 2013, 10:38:37 AM »

Just an aside...

Please can someone enlarge on the 'Italian reed numbers' designation on Squeezy's diagram?


I learned about it while working for the music room - it works exactly as you suggest going up the chromatic scale in semitones as the numbers increase.  It does get a bit confusing when you get to 0 for the low bass reeds which are given 0.1 an 0.01 type numbers!

I'm afraid I don't know how universal it is - but it has always served me well when dealing with italian reed makers.
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Squeezy

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squeezy

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #78 on: December 18, 2013, 11:00:39 AM »

Wow, thanks Squeezy, that takes the debate to a whole new level!  You've clearly gone a long way forward in your thinking of adding playability in new keys.  And you've gone 'flatwards' (I notice particularly that there's no push G#, which would have perhaps indicated a more 'sharpwards' direction).

Would I be right in saying that you've recognised that some of the reversals are no longer a priority with unisonoric basses, but you've also kept the basic 3-push/4-pull concept for the acc row, adding a few extra notes at the row ends to help?  I also notice the missing low E pull on the G row, presumably because you use the D row E pull nearby (as I guess many Hohner players with end-row accidentals learned to do automatically.)

Yes I did try and maintain the 7 note repeating sequence so that fingerings using the inside row would remain the same in the higher octave.

I haven't necessarily gone flatwards - the system is based around being able to play as many major or minor triads on the right hand as I could make fit because I figured that with unisonoric basses there is no point in attempting to get every note in both directions ... in fact there isn't room for that.  The only major/minor triads I don't get in full with that system are Bb minor and F# major.

So my system is based around harmony with the most comfortable finger shapes and as you say rather than thinking about smoothly played runs - funnily enough, as a side-effect, it keeps the majority of useful scales with a distinctly quint-like push pull pattern - which is something I like - although the horrible sounding punishment for a misplaced note here or there in the keys of E major or Eb major is a whole different ball game to missing the odd note in the keys of D or G !!!!

It's interesting thinking about the system as geared towards the sharp or flat keys beyond D and G ... I often think of "half-row" layouts in that way too.  However - unisonoric basses really changed the way I thought about things.  And actually when you get very far from the home keys - your flats are also your sharps!  So the G# button used playing in E major is the Ab button used in Eb!  Fortunately it doesn't seem to mind what it's called and it works well in both situations :-)
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Owen Woods

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #79 on: December 18, 2013, 11:04:20 AM »

Ahhh ET ::)

Interesting about the reed numbers, didn't know about that (:) Good to know.
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