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Author Topic: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems  (Read 11656 times)

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Lester

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #80 on: December 18, 2013, 11:12:26 AM »

Examples of reed orders for Emmanuel's building course with reed numbers.

Chris Brimley

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #81 on: December 18, 2013, 12:48:59 PM »

Squeezy, do you think it's right to say that with a similar box in say F#/B/Acc, you'd have, in a quint system, pretty much all the keys covered?
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squeezy

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #82 on: December 18, 2013, 05:37:00 PM »

Hi Chris.  Well - technically you've got all the keys covered anyway!  But some are definitely easier than others.

I would say that from what I've tried to do on it the major keys in order of ease to play in are:

G, D, C, A, F, E, Bb, Eb, B ... I haven't really ventured in to F#, C#, or Ab!

And minor keys in order of ease to play on my system are:

Am, Em, Bm, Gm, Dm, Cm, F#m, Fm - I haven't really attempted the flat key minors yet.

A transposed box in F#/B/acc would be a lot lower than the D/G layout and mine already goes pretty low in the bottom octave ... maybe C#/F#/acc or Ab/Eb/acc would help fill the gaps with the stradella rearranged to be centred around the home key.  I would probably go for Ab/Eb because it would give me Eb and Bb in easier fingerings than I already have on the D/G one whereas C#/F# would give me some pretty weird sharp keys as the easy ones to play in.

Cheers

Squeezy
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george garside

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #83 on: December 18, 2013, 08:05:09 PM »

Hi Chris.  Well - technically you've got all the keys covered anyway!  But some are definitely easier than others.

I Cheers

Squeezy

How many scales are required to cover  12 major keys?

george
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #84 on: December 18, 2013, 08:22:50 PM »

Not a meaningful question, although one can make an estimate, George. Let's take on "C", a mere 12th of the "range". Against a C major triad CEG the following scales might work …

CDEFGABC - bog standard "C major"
CDEF#GABC - lydian, not folky, but common in Blues and jazz
CDEFGABbC - mixolydian would be the standard scale against F on a G/C
CEFGBC - pentatonic (there are several of these)
CEbFGBbC - minor pentatonic, yes, that works too
CEbFF#GBbC - so called Blues scale = pentatonic + b5
CDEFGAbABC - major bebop
CDbEFGAbBbC - classic flamenco
… and more! Though some are a bit weird ;) Depends what "feel" you are after

Similar things can be said for minors. There is some degeneracy in this, eg that mixo scale  uses all the notes of F "major" scale
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 08:29:35 PM by Chris Ryall »
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squeezy

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #85 on: December 18, 2013, 08:26:51 PM »

Just the 12 George ... and yes I know what you're getting at  ::)

I think it was established earlier in the thread that the D/G/acc route is one people only go down if they've already done their training on D/G - maybe via a 2.5 row melodeon.  If you're talking about starting from scratch on a 3 row box attempting to play chromatic music then B/C/C# or continental chromatic is probably the way to go. 

But I was already in the position of playing a 2.5 row 12 bass instrument in about 6 keys all with different scales and fingerings ... to add another 6 seemed like less of a challenge than going back to ground zero with a completely different system.
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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #86 on: December 18, 2013, 09:47:12 PM »

My main box is a G/C/acc (2.6 row Loffet).  I currently don't have a D/G.

My experience is that whilst I can right hand in almost any key the bass end (12 basses) is iffy outside of home keys and the further I move away from F/Bb etc the worse it gets (ditto on the C/F Club).  As I go sharp it's almost not worth bothering with the left hand.

In melodeon terms my personal preference would be to have several quint boxes and play to their strengths or bite the bullet and go B/C/C#.

I have gone a different route and use a bandoneon for the pesky keys :)

Steve



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george garside

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #87 on: December 18, 2013, 10:11:50 PM »

its not a particularly hard bullet to bite!. 

george

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Owen Woods

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #88 on: December 18, 2013, 10:52:17 PM »

So is nobody even remotely tempted by the loomes chromatic? :(
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Lester

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #89 on: December 18, 2013, 10:56:22 PM »

I recommend carrying 12 1 rows to all gigs  >:E

george garside

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #90 on: December 18, 2013, 11:07:58 PM »

or 3  single voice 4 key one rows!   ;D
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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #91 on: December 18, 2013, 11:21:47 PM »

So is nobody even remotely tempted by the loomes chromatic? :(

Now I've read your blog about it, yes. That Hayden system free bass looks interesting too.
One for my Christmas list...
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #92 on: December 19, 2013, 05:20:22 AM »

What I was asking Squeezy about in my comment earlier was not whether he could play it in all keys - obviously he can with a stradella bass and all the notes available on the RHS.  I was interested to know how many such boxes he felt you would need to feel comfortable playing with others in any key.  And I believe his answer was effectively that just two should do it.
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Owen Woods

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #93 on: December 19, 2013, 08:59:20 AM »

So is nobody even remotely tempted by the loomes chromatic? :(

Now I've read your blog about it, yes. That Hayden system free bass looks interesting too.
One for my Christmas list...

I think that if I was commissioning one, I would have a Darwin system bass (or some variant). Or else Stradella.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #94 on: December 19, 2013, 11:04:26 AM »

Quote
So is nobody even remotely tempted by the loomes chromatic? :(

I don't think I would be personally tempted by it, but Ukebert, congrats and thanks for writing such a very clear and helpful article.

It's a brilliant and thought-provoking concept!

Am I right here?:  I think I would see it as primarily a competitor of BCC#, because of that seventh note.  For example, if you play a G major scale, it's still alternate like a single row diatonic, the essential difference for quint or single row players being that the F# would have to be on the push (without any reversals).  Similarly, but in reverse, looking at the C pull major scale, it looks as if again the seventh note would be on the pull, rather than the push.  I'm assuming from what you say (though I haven't checked), that those same fingering patterns would apply to all other keys.  I would have thought that this therefore means that you would really need unisonoric basses, as bisonoric basses would often create a dischord, when compared with the bisonoric system most of us are familiar with.

One thing I do like about it though is the alternating pattern of notes, which I guess would allow the airspring 'bounce' concept to work pretty well.

I'm beginning to think of DGAcc as a system which allows the use of either unisonoric or bisonoric basses, which I suggest distinguishes it from both Loomes and BCC#.

As to comparisons between Loomes and BCC#, I'm not qualified to judge at all. 

What we need is someone who's prepared to devote most of their lifetime to a Loomes system, then perhaps we'd know how it pans out!  But it's certainly worth someone trying it, I'd guess.
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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #95 on: December 19, 2013, 12:36:54 PM »

The Loomes could use bisonoric basses, but in terms of weight, a unisonoric reed sharing arrangement would be more sensible. But then I would say that a unisonoric bass would be more sensible for most boxes.

There are two fingering patterns (one tonic push, one tonic pull) which will give you all twelve scales. The fingering doesn't change with each octave.

I'm still thinking about your bounce concept!

I am prepared to devote the time to the system, in fact several people have been incredibly kind in making it happen. But unfortunately I just can't justify the money at the moment. I really need to save up for a better D/G and until I've done that, I really don't want to spend on any other box. But one day I will.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #96 on: December 19, 2013, 03:28:59 PM »

My experience is that whilst I can right hand in almost any key the bass end (12 basses) is iffy outside of home keys and the further I move away from F/Bb etc the worse it gets (ditto on the C/F Club).  As I go sharp it's almost not worth bothering with the left hand.

Exactly the same here.  A (with a G#) just about playable, in E .. I've running out of useful bass options. Whereas "flattening down" my particular layout (18 bass) is playable as far as Bb. So far .. that's just deux freres ::)

So it'll go down 3½ flats from its home rows but only up by 1½ - slightly surprised me! But I am a fella more likely to flatten a note in impro than to sharpen it, and my entry into C#/D/G actually took that into account. For several years I used to call it a "Db/D/G" system ;).

Might mention that the flattened keys C, F, Bb are almost completely on pull, with the usual 'long arms' issue
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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #97 on: December 19, 2013, 06:22:00 PM »

Quote
There are two fingering patterns (one tonic push, one tonic pull) which will give you all twelve scales. The fingering doesn't change with each octave.

The important consideration here is that the pushes and pulls on RH buttons should repeat equally. If you were to go for a repeat every four buttons rather than three, this could be true for other systems too, where the relationship between each row was 'quint'.  You could perhaps add another push note to the standard single row concept, which had either 6th or flat 7 as the new push note, and this would make it repeat in sync.  6th would give you the relative minor chord on the row, but for people with dark glasses, attitude and black t-shirts, perhaps flat 7 would be a good push note?

(So in G, the E pull note would have either a new E, or a new F, as the push note.)

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #98 on: December 19, 2013, 07:25:53 PM »

Actually, on reflection, identical fingering irrespective of the start button isn't true of either Loomes (which has a 3 semitone wide diagonal 'stripe' every octave), or my suggestion, which would have a 1 semitone 'stripe'.
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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #99 on: December 19, 2013, 08:54:07 PM »

Identical fingering would be consistent with a five row Loomes.
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