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Author Topic: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems  (Read 15473 times)

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Bob Ellis

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2013, 08:31:26 PM »

I am very grateful to Chris for starting this thread, which has already thrown up some interesting points for me to consider before commissioning my new three-row. Hopefully, it will throw up more: I will be particularly interested in responses to the suggestion that reeds may not be quite as responsive in a larger box than a smaller one because (if I understand it correctly) they are operating in a larger reed chamber.

Eight or nine years ago, I decided that I wanted a box that retained the virtues of a D/G box, whilst also enabling me to play in other keys. In essence, I wanted one box that would function as a D/G box for English music, a G/C box for French music and a C/F box to accompany singing. I also wanted three full octaves of D and G, so that I could play in octaves or vary the octave in which I play a tune and I wanted reversals of all the notes in the middle octave and as many as possible in the upper and lower octaves to make it easier to play legato with droned basses and to facilitate the playing of triplets and grace notes. Several months of working out a three-row D/G/Acc system to achieve all these objectives and much consultation with players who are better and more knowledgeable than me led to the production of a system that I hoped would work, but was not sure. It did! Since then all my melodeons have used this system or a variation on it (see the 3-row keyboard layouts section of the site if you want to see the details).

I am not suggesting that this system would suit everyone, but it meets my needs because it was designed to do so. The only weakness I have found is the need to compromise over the basses used when playing in certain non-standard keys on a 12- or 14-bass instrument. That is why my next box is designed to have 18 basses.

I suppose that what I am doing here is challenging the myth that you can't have one diatonic box that will do everything that you want it to do. I think you can if you analyse carefully what you want your melodeon to achieve and design it to meet those specifications. I have proved to my own satisfaction that it is possible.

Some might ask why, in that case, I also have a couple of one-row boxes. The answer is that I like the feel and sound of them and that four voices in a three-row box would be too heavy and unwieldy for a weakling like me to play. So, some compromises are necessary, but not many, and I would still say that it is possible to have almost everything you want in one box provided you are clear about what you do want and take the time and effort to design it carefully.
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Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

AirTime

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2013, 08:52:41 PM »

Quote
So, some compromises are necessary, but not many, and I would still say that it is possible to have almost everything you want in one box provided you are clear about what you do want and take the time and effort to design it carefully.

In my experience, one of the reasons for having several boxes is not just the ability to play in different keys, or tunes that require certain note/chord combinations, it's the pleasure of hearing the very different sound produced by different boxes. Every time I pick up a different box after playing the same one for a while, there's a very definite pleasure in hearing a familiar tune in the different key &/or tone of the new box.  (:)
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2013, 11:17:48 PM »

Do you need 'reversals' of those middle notes? (Bob might not mean this)
F# G A and B are already both ways on the main rows?

I've a helper button with reversed C#/D though - very useful  :D
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squeezy

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2013, 11:36:50 PM »

I've never thought about having a push C# as a reversal on a D/G system... that would be unbelievably useful ... but then again - so are all the notes I already have on my layout ... hmmmm
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Bob Ellis

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2013, 12:50:13 AM »

Of course, you are right, Chris. I should have been more explicit. What I meant was that my third row includes reversals of D and E in all three octaves plus C and C# in the middle octave. Since, there are already reversals of F#, G, A and B on the D and G rows, there was no reason to put them on the accidental row.

Squeezy, I can recommend having a C# reversal. I use it frequently.
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Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

Chris Ryall

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2013, 09:04:42 AM »

If you have space a C# on push is great

  • giving major 7 colour to a D chord, or notes run (keys D, A)
  • giving Bm9 feel to Bm chord or notes run (keys Bm)
  • extending dominant A chords indifferent ways (keys: D, various blues)
  • getting a lydian #4 feel when playing in G

Basically since I got this (it comes free with C#/D/G layout) .. Especially playing in D I've been voicing the chord I want  on the left - often that's a sus - and worrying about fitting the tune in on the right later!

It has particularly freed up modal dominants (think Nic Jones or Carthy guitar, etc).

Also has helped me develop F# harmonic minor, though that has needed other helpers right way (again coming free on my layout).
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2013, 10:06:48 AM »

It seems to me there's a lot to be said for making longer third rows on a D/G/Acc, if anything (assuming that's physically possible).  My bigger box has got 9 buttons, but a couple more wouldn't go amiss.  A reversed (i.e. push F) is something I'd like, a I already have reversed Bb's, and this would ease minor key playing.  Yes, and thumbs up to a reversed C# too.

A potential snag that I think Jack and Clive identified in earlier discussion was that it's beneficial to keep the '3-push/4-pull' repeat pattern of the D and G rows (although personally, I don't have this on the third row, mine's 4/4, and I'm not yet convinced that it's actually too much of a problem).  Of course there's at least two other ways round this - one would be a radical change, to have 4/4 on the first two rows too (thus making playing in each octave identical, which seems to me to have quite a lot of merit in principle); and the second way would be a fourth row, probably containing what you might call 'occasionals'.
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Owen Woods

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2013, 10:20:19 AM »

Or just learn the Loomes Chromatic system!

http://ukebert.wordpress.com/2012/12/31/the-loomes-chromatic/
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2013, 10:38:43 AM »

Maybe, but isn't that more a competitor for the B/C/C# than the D/G/Acc (which I think you noted), as it would presumably also require quite extensive relearning for DG players?  The concept of the D/G/Acc has something to do with 'additive' learning, and I would guess that 4/4 repeats would still fit in with that quite well.
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Clive Williams

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2013, 10:55:51 AM »

Argh! Don't make me change my layout mind again! So quick poll, which is most useful on the push on a D/G/Acc?

C reversal
C# reversal, or
Bb (assuming if you don't choose this, you have it on the pull, so you will have a Bb, just not on the push).

???

george garside

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2013, 10:56:03 AM »

The BCC# is not miles apart from the Dg and most DGists really only need to learn 3 new  scales (not 5) to have the benefit of 12 keys.  Playing a DG on the row is obviously the same as playing a BCC# in B.C or C# so that's one scale already known. Many DGists also play in A on the D row  so that's  G & F# on a BCC# taken care of  . So most DGists can already play 5 keys on a BCC#!!  . T'other 3 scales aren't at all difficult to get the hang of.   Its this entirely logical facility to get 12 keys out of 5 scales that makes the BCC#  different to the hugely varied and often individualy chosen  set up on a DG + accs

george
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Owen Woods

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2013, 10:57:23 AM »

I think that there is a place for the D/G/Acc (namely wishing to play in a limited set of keys, but wanting maximum harmonic/melodic possibilities in those keys), but when you start talking about longer rows and fourth rows, I think that you'd be better off adapting your playing to the Loomes system, or indeed a B/C/C#. It isn't that different from a diatonic system and it does have lots of melodic and harmonic possibilities (but not endless ones).
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george garside

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2013, 11:02:51 AM »

Of course we could all bugger off and buy continental chromatics

george >:E
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Owen Woods

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2013, 11:16:08 AM »

Ah, but where would be the fun in that? :P
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Bob Ellis

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2013, 11:34:08 AM »

This is rather likely the old chestnut about the countryman giving directions to a motorist who says: "If I was you, I wouldn't start from here." If it were possible to start from scratch, but with the knowledge we have acquired from years of playing experience, then it is likely that some who have gone down the D/G/Acc route might choose an alternative system, such as B/C/C# or continental chromatic, but that is not where we are. We have acquired a lot of experience of the D/G system over the years and are loathe to jettison that experience when gravitating to a three-row system. We also want to be able to transfer back and forwards between two-row and three-row boxes without having to change our fingering or think too much. As Chris B. has said, we favour 'additive' learning rather than getting our old brains round new systems, so D/G/Acc is a logical way to go unless A/D/G, or the C#/D/G system favoured by Chris R. floats your boat.

Personally, A/D/G does not provide enough accidentals for my needs, while C#/D/G does not provide the C, D and E reversals I find very useful. Consequently, as you might expect, I prefer the system I designed myself, which has these reversals.

As for Clive's proposed poll, I would find the choice impossible to make: I find the C and C# reversals equally useful and Bb is important for playing in D minor and G minor, which occur frequently in the French music I play.
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Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

Chris Brimley

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2013, 11:44:34 AM »

My answer to Clive's question would be:

1.  It still depends on what type of tunes you wish to play - it's not just a theoretical question.  Theoretically, If you want to extend your range in the 'flatwards' direction, you'd be looking more for the Bb push, if 'sharpwards', perhaps C# (though I have no experience of that one personally.)  The thing about the C note seems to me to be that although theoretically it ought to be a front-runner because of its close relationship to the home keys the main chords you might want to use it with (C, F, Am, Dm, D) are all there on the pull, so I confess mine doesn't seem to get used as much as I might have imagined it should.  Whereas the point about a push Bb is that you benefit from having it against Gm and Bb push (on my system, anyway), and there aren't suitable alternatives.  The Dm scale is a happy extra.  But these impressions may simply be because I haven't learnt the possibilities properly, after 25 years+ on the big box, I don't know yet!
2.  Unless you happen to have these notes all already and to have used them (and I only have C and Bb), players probably wouldn't be in a position to compare one with another.  I therefore wish to express my ignorance of the answer personally.
3.  I do think the 3-push/4-pull principle, though understandable, may be a little over-restrictive.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2013, 11:54:05 AM »

And Bob, very well said.  I suspect at my age I will not have enough effective life left to change system, so it's no longer an option.

However I also posed a little challenge to the proponents of the other systems, which I'm still hoping someone will rise to, and I would be genuinely very pleased to be convinced by evidence.  Here it is, in new words:

We all know that both DGAcc and BCC# can do fiddly-diddly, and also fizhlydizhly.  But can BCC# do rumpty-tumpty?
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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2013, 11:58:42 AM »

And Bob, very well said.  I suspect at my age I will not have enough effective life left to change system, so it's no longer an option.

However I also posed a little challenge to the proponents of the other systems, which I'm still hoping someone will rise to, and I would be genuinely very pleased to be convinced by evidence.  Here it is, in new words:

We all know that both DGAcc and BCC# can do fiddly-diddly, and also fizhlydizhly.  But can BCC# do rumpty-tumpty?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=801FTAcTGwE

And I was never a great B/C/C# player. So I say yes!
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Theo

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2013, 12:00:38 PM »

And of course never forget that in creating great music the musician is more important than the instrument.   Just think what Stephan Deliq Or Fred Paris can do with a two row box.  Two name just two great players.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Bigger Boxes - comparing the D/G/Acc with other systems
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2013, 12:31:43 PM »

Quote
And I was never a great B/C/C# player. So I say yes!

OK, I'm getting there!  A hornpipe I know well, and I've always found that its feel has to come from hitting the buttons to give it initial staccato attack on each note.  Would I be right in saying however that because of the sheer size of your LH end, it's no doddle to vary the bellows pressure, for the force/area reasons discussed earlier?  It's a tricky tune, with any system I suspect, to get the 'hrrrrrumph' sound on the notes, is it not?
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