Topic: Ultimate melodeon (Read 10635 times)

Sandy · « **Reply #20 on:** February 21, 2009, 01:42:16 PM »

Quote from: george garside on February 20, 2009, 10:33:22 PM

if you want the whole scal in G ( or whatever) in either direction you might just as well buy a piano or continental chromatic accordion - surely the whole point of a 'sook and blaw' box is that you have to do just that!

george

I believe this too. It's the unique 'percussive' quality of the box that really grabs me.

cheers

Sandy
:)

IanD · « **Reply #21 on:** February 21, 2009, 02:34:45 PM »

Quote from: Bob Ellis on February 21, 2009, 12:34:58 AM

Quote
As an aside, why do they not make three-rows in DGC? For English players, that would give the whole scale of G in either direction.....

In my opinion, a better solution is to have a G/D box with a row of accidental that includes C, C^#, D and E in the opposite direction plus a range of the most useful accidentals, such as F, B^b, E^b and G^#. I converted a box to this system about three years ago and now have two such boxes - one of the best things I ever did!

I've had one of these for a long time (in fact it's the prototype Castagnari Dony which I persuaded them to convert into a 3-row for me); the thing that makes it less than perfect is the size and weight.

Now if **** (name removed to protect the innocent) succeeds in building the 2.5 row 2-reed 8-bass we've been talking about (with ideas taken from my Oakwood/Tommy/Preciosa plus some of my own crazy ones) that *would* be my ideal melodeon...

Ian

jonm · « **Reply #22 on:** February 21, 2009, 05:03:18 PM »

Having the whole scale of G in either direction doesn't mean you have to play melody across the rows, it just annoys me that there are chords I want to use which I cannot make - D7 for example, which is only F#minor without the D.

I like the idea of having the relevant keys - and there aren't many, C, C#, D and E - on a half row.

Nick Hudis · « **Reply #23 on:** February 21, 2009, 06:53:34 PM »

Quote

if you want the whole scal in G ( or whatever) in either direction you might just as well buy a piano or continental chromatic accordion - surely the whole point of a 'sook and blaw' box is that you have to do just that!

This to me is the key issue ( no pun intended). Take a Handry 18, or a Loffet Pro (which is the box I'm most attracted to sound wise). Depending on exactly how it's set up, you've got a box that is a bit of a paradox. It is pretty nearly chromatic and has enough reversals to play across the rows with very little push or pull. You've got a box that approaches the flexibility of a PA or CBA, but grafted on to the basic melodeon push pull scale so you have to hunt around and pull all sorts of tricks to achieve this. Bandoneons and the bigger Anglos are similar in this respect.

Listening to and watching guys who play these big boxes, Riccardo Tesi, Marc Perrone etc they seem to be playing mainly across the rows, so the push pull concept has become a bit of an anachronism. There is nothing mushy about these players either. When they really crank it up there is every bit as much rhythmic vitality as say John Kirkpatrick pushing and pulling a Hohner. But maybe there is a point where you've got so far from the simple "melodeon," that you might as well play a CBA or PA and make life simple for yourself. Yet to my ear at least you could never be fooled into thinking that Perrone or Tesi are playing anything other than a diatonic accordion. Maybe its just ignorance on my part, but I've never heard a a PA or CBA which approaches that special diatonic accordion sound. (though they have fine qualities of their own) What is that sound? A little rawness, a little poignancy, a bit more like a voice and less like a fairground organ.... I don't know.

george garside · « **Reply #24 on:** February 21, 2009, 08:17:06 PM »

so you have to hunt around and pull all sorts of tricks to achieve this. Bandoneons and the bigger Anglos are similar in this respect.

. [/quote]

makes a BCC# sound very easy & logical in comparison as the relationship between notes on stays exactly the same whatever key you are playing in - no need to hunt around or pull all sorts of tricks!

I think the reason for the 'diatonic' sound is brought about by the fact that some notes are changed by using a different pair of buttons & some by changing bellows direction. Which occurs where is dictated by the needs of the tune and to some degree by the wishesof the driver. Therefore this subtly different way of changing notes is unevenly distributed according to the tune, the layout of the box and the way it is played. This applies to all diatonic boxes including those on which a whole scale can be played in one direction as you cant go on extending or pushing the bellows for ever. Piano & continental chromatic players also have to change bellow direction but most try to make the change at a phrasing point in a tune so as to minimise the effect of the bellows direction change that provides the diatonics with their subtly different sound.

For what its worth I think being able to play a scale in one direction is a very mixed blessing as it necesitates use of a lot of bellows which in turn reduces the all important control of the bellows for dynamics, rhythm etc etc. and certainly on larger boxes the furthur you let the bellows out the harder they are to get back (? uphill) whilst retaining any degree of finesse.

george

Bob Ellis · « **Reply #25 on:** February 22, 2009, 01:22:58 AM »

Quote

For what its worth I think being able to play a scale in one direction is a very mixed blessing as it necesitates use of a lot of bellows which in turn reduces the all important control of the bellows for dynamics, rhythm etc etc. and certainly on larger boxes the further you let the bellows out the harder they are to get back (? uphill) whilst retaining any degree of finesse.

For me the reason for having all the notes in D and G in both directions is not primarily so that I can play a scale in one direction. My reasons are:

to give more choice in the use of basses. For instance, in a tune where a phrase is repeated, I might play it the first time mainly on the push using G basses and the second time mainly on the pull using E^m basses.
to make it easier to play triplets and cuts.
to provide more flexibility in phrasing. For instance, I usually play jaunty polkas using lots of changes in bellows direction, but I might play whole phrases of a slow air in the same direction so that I can drone the basses.

So, by having all the notes in both directions, I am not trying to make the melodeon sound like a piano accordion (perish the thought!). I am simply seeking more flexibility and ways to make difficult bits easier to play.

HallelujahAl · « **Reply #26 on:** February 22, 2009, 11:52:18 AM »

Heresy I know, but my ultimate melodeon probably ends up looking a lot like and (more importantly) giving me the same musical options as a PA...however, I'm rather enjoying being diatonically challenged at the moment...though I often miss being able to play all scales in all directions...now there's a thought!

AL

george garside · « **Reply #27 on:** February 22, 2009, 12:20:15 PM »

For me the reason for having all the notes in D and G in both directions is not primarily so that I can play a scale in one direction. My reasons are:

to give more choice in the use of basses. For instance, in a tune where a phrase is repeated, I might play it the first time mainly on the push using G basses and the second time mainly on the pull using E^m basses.
to make it easier to play triplets and cuts.
to provide more flexibility in phrasing. For instance, I usually play jaunty polkas using lots of changes in bellows direction, but I might play whole phrases of a slow air in the same direction so that I can drone the basses.

So, by having all the notes in both directions, I am not trying to make the melodeon sound like a piano accordion (perish the thought!). I am simply seeking more flexibility and ways to make difficult bits easier to play.
[/quote]

just acting as devils aadvocate - doesn't it make more sense to alter the bass to fit the treble rather than altring the treble to fit the bass. Am thinking particularly of using some form of same both ways bass i.e. stradella or trixitica or even a mixture as used by some irish players (layouts on melnet). It is possible to accomodate 48 stradella on a 2 row double ray de lux as has been done very successfully by Bruce Lindsay in Scotland. Other possibilities include 12 stradella as on some double ray delux & trichord or 8 or 12 thirdless major chords which would provide reasonable harmony and reasonable rhythm for such a small number of buttons - you would in effect have the pa without the um!

george

IanD · « **Reply #28 on:** February 22, 2009, 12:58:27 PM »

Quote from: Bob Ellis on February 22, 2009, 01:22:58 AM

Quote
For what its worth I think being able to play a scale in one direction is a very mixed blessing as it necesitates use of a lot of bellows which in turn reduces the all important control of the bellows for dynamics, rhythm etc etc. and certainly on larger boxes the further you let the bellows out the harder they are to get back (? uphill) whilst retaining any degree of finesse.

For me the reason for having all the notes in D and G in both directions is not primarily so that I can play a scale in one direction. My reasons are:
to give more choice in the use of basses. For instance, in a tune where a phrase is repeated, I might play it the first time mainly on the push using G basses and the second time mainly on the pull using E^m basses.
to make it easier to play triplets and cuts.
to provide more flexibility in phrasing. For instance, I usually play jaunty polkas using lots of changes in bellows direction, but I might play whole phrases of a slow air in the same direction so that I can drone the basses.
So, by having all the notes in both directions, I am not trying to make the melodeon sound like a piano accordion (perish the thought!). I am simply seeking more flexibility and ways to make difficult bits easier to play.

The price for more notes in both directions is the same as the price for more reeds or more basses -- more size and weight, which makes it difficult to get that push-pull crispness and punch that you can with a lighter box.

To see this taken to its logical extreme have a look at this...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jDMhFTiBpC0&feature=related

Cheers

Ian

P.S. Yes a lot of it is fabulous fingerwork, but just look at what he does with the bellows :-)

P.P.S. My wife said "I bet he hasn't got a girlfriend..."

Bob Ellis · « **Reply #29 on:** February 22, 2009, 03:13:12 PM »

Quote from: IanD on February 22, 2009, 12:58:27 PM

The price for more notes in both directions is the same as the price for more reeds or more basses -- more size and weight, which makes it difficult to get that push-pull crispness and punch that you can with a lighter box.

Yes, it can lead to extra weight, but I got round that by buying a new, improved model, Castagnari Benny. It is light and has the punch and push-pull crispness we all desire. It also has a great tone, especially since Castagnari have corrected the anaemic bass that let down the earlier (slightly smaller) Benny.

IanD · « **Reply #30 on:** February 22, 2009, 03:15:34 PM »

Quote from: Bob Ellis on February 22, 2009, 03:13:12 PM

Quote from: IanD on February 22, 2009, 12:58:27 PM
The price for more notes in both directions is the same as the price for more reeds or more basses -- more size and weight, which makes it difficult to get that push-pull crispness and punch that you can with a lighter box.

Yes, it can lead to extra weight, but I got round that by buying a new, improved model, Castagnari Benny. It is light and has the punch and push-pull crispness we all desire. It also has a great tone, especially since Castagnari have corrected the anaemic bass that let down the earlier (slightly smaller) Benny.

I'd be interested to know what they did to fix the basses, the Benny's used to be *really* weedy...

So how much does it weigh?

Ian

P.S. After doing some searching, I guess the answers are 1) added a third bass reed 2) 3.1kg
(I guess it's similar to a Tommy inside but with the 3 reed blocks being 1 per row (2 reeds) instead of 1 per row and 1 low one shared)

Bob Ellis · « **Reply #31 on:** February 23, 2009, 12:54:43 AM »

Quote from: IanD on February 22, 2009, 03:15:34 PM

I'd be interested to know what they did to fix the basses, the Benny's used to be *really* weedy...
So how much does it weigh?
Ian
P.S. After doing some searching, I guess the answers are 1) added a third bass reed 2) 3.1kg
(I guess it's similar to a Tommy inside but with the 3 reed blocks being 1 per row (2 reeds) instead of 1 per row and 1 low one shared)

You are certainly correct about the weight and I think you are correct about the reed blocks, although I don't have time to check as I am just about to go away for a few days. They definitely made the Benny a bit larger than the earlier version in order to house the enlarged reed blocks in the bass end.

TomB-R · « **Reply #32 on:** February 23, 2009, 10:54:37 AM »

Quote from: sandy on February 21, 2009, 01:42:16 PM

Quote from: george garside on February 20, 2009, 10:33:22 PM

if you want the whole scal in G ( or whatever) in either direction you might just as well buy a piano or continental chromatic accordion - surely the whole point of a 'sook and blaw' box is that you have to do just that!

george

I believe this too. It's the unique 'percussive' quality of the box that really grabs me.

cheers

Sandy
:)

While the "percussive" qualities or "bellows dynamics" of push-pull boxes are often cited as a major advantage, I think it's also worth remembering the compactness or "efficiency" of the layout. You have a lot of notes over a wide range within reach under your hand. Come to traditional tunes from button box, whistle, or fiddle etc and start playing them on a "piano" keyboard (whatever sound generation device may be attached to it) and you suddenly realise that they cover quite a large range and your hand is having to fly around in big jumps across intervals that are hardly noticeable on the "traditional" instruments. Although that's routine technique to be learned by keyboard players, it's just not an issue on the more "traditional" instruments.
(There have been some typically forthright comments on this issue from resident MG over at thesession.org.)
Tom

Andy in Vermont · « **Reply #33 on:** February 23, 2009, 05:04:32 PM »

Quote from: finnhorse on February 16, 2009, 04:42:37 AM

So how about a 6-voice, 1-row MMMMMM in three different keys? Someone must have messed around with that idea. More trouble than it's worth?

The problem is, by the time you add that much weight, you might as well have a three-row keyboard. At least you can access all of those notes!
-Andy
P.S. For me, the ultimate in "melodeonness" is a one-row box made in Quebec!

Québécois · « **Reply #34 on:** February 23, 2009, 05:33:28 PM »

Quote from: Andy in Vermont on February 23, 2009, 05:04:32 PM

P.S. For me, the ultimate in "melodeonness" is a one-row box made in Quebec!

You bet! It's the quintessence of the melodeon!

Accordion Dave · « **Reply #35 on:** February 25, 2009, 04:58:46 AM »

The melodeon is starting to spoil me. My right hand doesn't need to travel as far to do the same runs on a button accordion as on a piano accordion. However, I do need to remember when to reverse the bellows.

finnhorse · « **Reply #36 on:** February 25, 2009, 06:27:58 AM »

I played a PA five years ago before coming to the melodeon.. The rhythmical accompaniment of the left hand on the PA is what attracted me to accordions in general, but the boring bellows use on the PA is what made me want to try the box. I put it off in favor of focusing on the concertina for too long. Maybe I never came to realize the PA's potential, or maybe it's the push/pull attitude I came to appreciate on the concertina, but I feel the box provides better sport, more opportunities for changing it up in any given tune. It's hard to become disinterested when there's so many tricks to be had and different ways to accomplish the same task. The box is a compact, loud, and spunky little thing, so devilishly simple but some people can really work wizardry with them. Don't know why I overlooked it for so long.

After rereading this thread, I'm still dying to have this one and that one, and would like to change this and that about another, but I'm also inclined to believe that any melodeon is the "ultimate" melodeon. It is truly an inspired invention.

george garside · « **Reply #37 on:** February 25, 2009, 10:16:43 AM »

how about a streb with 'predictive keyboard' like what mobile phones have. cock ups would be a thing of the pst - or would they
george

Accordion Dave · « **Reply #38 on:** February 26, 2009, 01:34:49 AM »

I am getting a bit off topic...

Learning to play the melodeon has actually improved my bellows technique on the piano accordion.

Ebor_fiddler · « **Reply #39 on:** February 26, 2009, 11:10:33 PM »

George - Where can I buy one?

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Author Topic: Ultimate melodeon (Read 10635 times)

HallelujahAl

finnhorse