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Author Topic: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?  (Read 5305 times)

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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2014, 01:41:42 AM »

Sorry to be so negative on the first day of 2014 but it's those bastards with the slogan " NO WIN, NO FEE"
Should take the blame for all the above posts.
Signed, Waldorf & Statler.
( was in a pub in Padstow, UK . Me and my friend Charlie were in the bar and I must admit we were rather loud, the barman said and what would Waldorf & Statler like to drink now. )
Waldorf and Statler from the Muppets that is. 8)
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Malcolm Clapp

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2014, 01:57:23 AM »

Slightly off topic, but a word of caution with Public Liability insurance. Read the fine print.

In Oz, some so-called PL policies limit their cover to the cost of defending PL claims and not the cost of the actual damage.

The lawyers win, whatever the result.  >:E >:E >:E
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 02:08:37 AM by Malcolm Clapp »
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Howard Jones

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2014, 11:20:16 AM »

The venue (presumably the parish council?) will have PLI insurance for liability resulting from its own negligence.  The reason they require users to have PLI  is that if anything were to happen which was caused by your negligence the council and the PTA will probably be first in the firing line.  Their insurers would then try to counterclaim against you, and they want to know that you have the means to cover the liability ie your own insurance.  The PTA will no doubt have their own insurance, but so far as they are concerned you are a third party and won't be covered by it.

The risks may seem very small, but if someone were to trip over an instrument case or get poked in the eye by a fiddle bow there might be a claim.  You may decide for yourself that the risk is acceptable and you don't want to take out insurance.   However whoever arranges the bookings for the hall almost certainly won't have any discretion to override the Council's rules.

Do you have household insurance?  This will probably include PLI cover.  This won't cover professional work, but this is an unpaid amateur performance.

Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2014, 12:10:26 PM »

Thank you Howard for explaining succinctly what I was struggling to express.
That in a nutshell is how I see it.
Q
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ButtonBox21

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2014, 12:59:18 PM »

I ran into a similar situation here in Florida. I wanted to attend an Italian festival and bring my organetto. I planned to pay the entry fee as a visitor and simply find a spot and play a few tunes. I don't have any electrical equipment, microphones or amplifiers. I just wanted to play acoustically.  I did not ask for any money. I don't play professionally and am not an incorporated entity. Essentially, I would be a visitor like any one else. Only I would have an instrument to play. I was told by the promoter that I had to have special event insurance. I have attended Irish and Cajun festivals in other states and always brought my accordion and played. I just wanted to play traditional Italian music at an Italian festival. That is what a festival is for, is it not? I checked with my insurance agent who is a former musician and he explained just how anal the laws in this state are and that the promoter was correct in requiring insurance. It would cost me almost $200USD per day just to play for an hour or so. Big disappointment. Needless to say, I did not attend. Looks like the trial lawyers lobby and insurance lobby have a tight grip on our state capitol. What is the world coming to? You can't have any fun anymore unless the government provides and controls it. Very sad indeed. If anyone knows a way around this sillyness, I would love to hear it as there are more festivals coming up in the spring.  :||: :|||:
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 01:01:30 PM by ButtonBox21 »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2014, 01:19:21 PM »

A nice equivalence would be ... say  someone of the British horse racing clique who likes to wear exotic pieces of millinery (we do have such ladies on this Isle)! 

The hat won't come cheap, of course, but this sort of correctness would seem to demand she further take out insurance against risk that a bystander being so awestruck that they trip over some horse poo and then sue for expensive dry cleaning of their own Special Frock.

Or be refused entry?  .. reductio ad absurdum  :P
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2014, 01:33:05 PM »

Quote
but this is an unpaid amateur performance.

Isn't that a potential issue, Howard?  Many of us might think that merely receiving simple expenses payments avoids the problem, but I doubt that's actually true.  My concern with all this is that we all assume that receiving paltry payments for performing is the norm for amateur musicians, therefore we're not counted as 'businesses'.  Whereas if the chips were to go down, that assumption won't stack up.
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oggiesnr

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2014, 02:44:59 PM »

On the face of it, get a quote and tell the organisers that as they insist you have PLI they will have to meet the expense of it.  If they won't, and insist you have it, then don't play.

I have to confess that I'm actually uncertain as to whether you would actually be eligible to get PLI as a group as you're not one in any usual sense of the word.  You have no group identity other than as the musicians who play this gig, you don't have a set membership or publicise for work or even a name.

Steve
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2014, 02:54:20 PM »

Quite right, oggiesnr.
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Marje

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2014, 03:21:24 PM »

The venue (presumably the parish council?) will have PLI insurance for liability resulting from its own negligence.  The reason they require users to have PLI  is that if anything were to happen which was caused by your negligence the council and the PTA will probably be first in the firing line.  Their insurers would then try to counterclaim against you, and they want to know that you have the means to cover the liability ie your own insurance.  The PTA will no doubt have their own insurance, but so far as they are concerned you are a third party and won't be covered by it.

The risks may seem very small, but if someone were to trip over an instrument case or get poked in the eye by a fiddle bow there might be a claim.  You may decide for yourself that the risk is acceptable and you don't want to take out insurance.   However whoever arranges the bookings for the hall almost certainly won't have any discretion to override the Council's rules.

Do you have household insurance?  This will probably include PLI cover.  This won't cover professional work, but this is an unpaid amateur performance.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Howard.
The venue is probably owned by the Church, but we may well be doing another spot in a marquee set up by the PTA in the street, which will be closed to traffic. We are, incidentally, not happy about this bit - mid January! - and will skip it if the weather is not kind. But I suppose the street is owned by the County Council.

Household insurance might provide some cover but there are going to be 6 or 7 households involved in the gig. People are doing this largely as a favour to me and to support the village, and I am not prepared to ask them to check on their insurance to cover a non-existent risk. Anyway, the organisers are asking for the details of a single policy to cover us all, which we don't have. I think the others would feel as I do - that there is no need for insurance any more than when we play in a pub or elsewhere. If someone were to trip over an instrument case it would be just as much due to their own negligence as ours, and I cannot imagine that they would decide to sue the PTA. They might also injure themelves falling over someone else's bag or coat or dog or buggy in the venue, and who would then be liable?

The issue of payment is another puzzle. The risks we pose are the same regardless of any payment, but it sounds as if by accepting payment (which, at this stage, has not even been agreed)  we become "sub-contractors" and must therefore hold our own insurance. I am wondering whether if instead of money they gave us vouchers to spend on food and drink at tne event, this would mean we were not "sub-contractors" and therefore didn't need to be insured? In which case, who would then be liable for this hypothetical damage that we might cause to the public?

I know you can't answer all these, I am just musing over the ridiculousness of it all.
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Marje

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2014, 03:24:53 PM »

On the face of it, get a quote and tell the organisers that as they insist you have PLI they will have to meet the expense of it.  If they won't, and insist you have it, then don't play.

I have to confess that I'm actually uncertain as to whether you would actually be eligible to get PLI as a group as you're not one in any usual sense of the word.  You have no group identity other than as the musicians who play this gig, you don't have a set membership or publicise for work or even a name.

Steve

Yes, Steve, that is part of the problem. We are not a proper band, just a loose collection of friends who assemble for this one event. There are also a few village children who are fiddle pupils of a local musician, who will join us with their tutor for a couple of tunes. Are they supposed to be insured too, and by whom? I just can't imagine how I could take out a policy, even if I had a mind to.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2014, 05:10:53 PM »

This is all becoming slightly odd - any person may be held responsible for the consequences of their own negligence, and I agree with you that whether they happen to be being paid (in cash or vouchers, it doesn't matter) is somewhat irrelevant, except that as 'sub-contractors' the 'contractor' conceivably acquires additional responsibility for commissioning you, which they need to cover (rather than you).  If they seek to recharge you for insuring against their risk, then surely just quietly say that you're not being remunerated enough to be able to do so?  They really ought to understand that, if they consider the risk to be in any way significant!

The highway issue however is a whole new game of soldiers - actually the Highway Authority probably do not 'own' the highway, they merely have powers and duties in respect of upholding the public's legal right to 'pass and repass', as it is known.  They (or the Police) may have used their powers to enact a temporary closure of the highway to traffic (and it's worth checking that one with the organisers), but if the organisers are trying to absolve themselves of any risk in respect of them organising entertainment on the public highway by trying to pass it on to you, I would complain very loudly to them!  No insurance could cover you against illegal action, and if you are being asked to take on responsibility for obstructing the highway, that is just plain ridiculous.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 05:13:38 PM by Chris Brimley »
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911377brian

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2014, 05:27:54 PM »

Brighton has a policy of closing streets to traffic on what seems to be a rotatory basis..not too sure of the details as I haven't lived here long. Anyway, back in the summer I sat by my front door and played and a load of sprogs, from 4 years up danced their little feet off for an hour. Should I have been insured? ???
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Marje

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2014, 05:58:42 PM »

This is all becoming slightly odd - any person may be held responsible for the consequences of their own negligence, and I agree with you that whether they happen to be being paid (in cash or vouchers, it doesn't matter) is somewhat irrelevant, except that as 'sub-contractors' the 'contractor' conceivably acquires additional responsibility for commissioning you, which they need to cover (rather than you).  If they seek to recharge you for insuring against their risk, then surely just quietly say that you're not being remunerated enough to be able to do so?  They really ought to understand that, if they consider the risk to be in any way significant!

The highway issue however is a whole new game of soldiers - actually the Highway Authority probably do not 'own' the highway, they merely have powers and duties in respect of upholding the public's legal right to 'pass and repass', as it is known.  They (or the Police) may have used their powers to enact a temporary closure of the highway to traffic (and it's worth checking that one with the organisers), but if the organisers are trying to absolve themselves of any risk in respect of them organising entertainment on the public highway by trying to pass it on to you, I would complain very loudly to them!  No insurance could cover you against illegal action, and if you are being asked to take on responsibility for obstructing the highway, that is just plain ridiculous.
Thanks for you comments, Chris. I would prefer not to ask the organisers to pay us more, as the event raises money for the school, which is why we're happy with modest expenses. But if pushed I will hold my ground and say we don't intend even to attempt to get insurance - that is not our problem.
I am sure the police and council will have been notified and the highway closure will be official. It's an annual event and there are usually official notices up beforehand warning of the road closure. I don't think that's the issue, it's more likely an administrative mess due to over-zealousness/caution on the part of the event's insurers.
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Howard Jones

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2014, 07:07:24 PM »

It's quite possible that someone at the PTA has simply repeated the request for PLI without thinking it through.  They are treating you as if you were the same as the professionals who run the hog-roast or sell ice-creams, rather than as members of the community trying to contribute to a community event.  You should be treated the same as their own volunteers.  Perhaps it simply needs sorting out with the PTA's own insurers.

If their insurers won't cover you, you should certainly stand your ground.  You are offering to help them, it is up to them to sort it out. 

Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2014, 08:09:14 PM »

Marje, the payment issue could be viewed another way.
A friend running a well known Morris side always insisted on a full fee, even for the most needy of charitable events. After full payment, the event organiser generally received a donation from them, the return in full of the fee.
In this context though it will probably only confuse the issue.
Q
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2014, 11:12:37 PM »

I agree with Howard.  This does now look like something that's best sorted out on the phone by explaining your Band's position, as it will be seen to be eminently reasonable by anyone who's just straightforward, but who perhaps does not understand the issues in the same depth as you do.  Good luck with it, Marje!

 
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2014, 08:49:24 AM »

in the end the answer is political. If the PC pressure becomes more than you are willing to accept you should actually just say no.

as for achieving sanity for the future,  your councillor/MP might or might not be sympathetic but I'd cc him in. An offer of an interview to local paper can also work wonders If you do the latter, square it with the former too. It's worked for me, though my "sympathetic"  MP still voted for entertainment licensing :-\
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2014, 09:20:18 AM »

Marje, the payment issue could be viewed another way.
A friend running a well known Morris side always insisted on a full fee, even for the most needy of charitable events. After full payment, the event organiser generally received a donation from them, the return in full of the fee.
In this context though it will probably only confuse the issue.
Q
A band I used to play in followed that policy too. It originally stemmed from a request many years ago to do a freebie ceilidh as a charity fund-raiser. Unfortunately, knowing they had a free band, the organisers made virtually no effort to publicise the event so hardly anyone turned up. There were not enough people even to form one set for dancing, so it was pretty much a disaster. We did play a few tunes for ourselves for an hour or so, but when it became obvious that things were not going to improve, and we'd had enough of the seedy hall we were in, we packed up and just went home.

Nowadays, like your Morris side, we insist on a full fee regardless of what the event is for. If nothing else, it provides an incentive for the organisers to do their job properly and get punters to attend the event. If it is for a charity which we would all wish to support, some or all of the members of the band might donate all or part of their fee back to the organisers. But we use our discretion and make no promises in advance.
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Marje

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Re: Publici Liability insurance for one-off amateur gig?
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2014, 09:56:11 AM »

It's quite possible that someone at the PTA has simply repeated the request for PLI without thinking it through.  They are treating you as if you were the same as the professionals who run the hog-roast or sell ice-creams, rather than as members of the community trying to contribute to a community event.  You should be treated the same as their own volunteers.  Perhaps it simply needs sorting out with the PTA's own insurers.

If their insurers won't cover you, you should certainly stand your ground.  You are offering to help them, it is up to them to sort it out.

I think you're right that the organisers haven't thought it through. One problem with PTAs is that because children are only in the school for a few years, there can be a lack of continuity, and just when one person has got the hang of a role, their child leaves the school and someone new takes over. There is probably someone now in charge who is trying just a bit too hard to ge everything right.
In this case I don't think there are any professional entertainers. Most things (such as food) are done by volunteers, although the local brewery and cider farm are probably responsible for their stalls. I'd be interested to know what the response from the story-teller is (one man sitting in the church telling stories to families) - what are his insurable risks, I wonder? Or the Wassail Choir, who simply stand around and sing?
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