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[arty]

Please excuse what is probably a silly question!

Because I am totally in love with the sound of Naragonia, I listen to them often. They both play large 3 row Castagnaris with 18 basses, (I don't know which models). My question is this, would smaller Castagnaris, i.e. a 2 row or 2.5 row, with equivalent reeds, give exactly the same quality of sound and tonality as those big boxes that Naragonia play? Or does the physical size of the box affect the sound?

[Theo]

The physical size does affect the sound quality, but the skill of the musician is by far the biggest factor that creates the overall sound magic of a band as good as Naragonia.

[arty]

Thanks Theo but that prompts another question. What is the particular skill that musicians of this calibre have, which produces that quality of sound? Is it all in the use of the bellows?
I also love the sound of Andy Cutting and have noticed that both he and the Naragonia musicians seem to have a very relaxed approach to their instruments. The sound seems to appear with the minimum of physical effort.
I guess that fine quality instruments such as Castagnaris respond to this sensitive approach simply because the quality of the reeds and the box in general are very receptive to this quality of musicianship.
But how does one learn this?

[Owen Woods]

You are quite right arty in all you say. The answer to your question, sadly, is practice!

[EastAnglianTed]

You are quite right arty in all you say. The answer to your question, sadly, is practice!

    +1 

[Theo]

Not just practice, but also a similar amount of time in listening to and absorbing great music.

[waltzman]

I think the short answer to your question "can a 2 row box give the same tone and quality of sound as a larger three row box?" is yes.  Listen to Stephane Delicq who preferred two row boxes.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg_SwNw-yJw

[arty]

Interesting, isn't it.

Of course, everyone is right - Ukebert says 'practice', East Anglian Ted says 'practice more', Theo says 'listening to and absorbing great music', Waltzman says 'listen to Stephane Delicq who preferred two row boxes'.

But it's more than all of these things surely. If it were just these things, there would be hundreds of people who play as well as Naragonia. But there aren't, that's why Naragonia stand out.

I think Naragonia have been sprinkled with a little genius dust. They are Artists and they don't just play the instrument, they make the instrument speak for them.

I doubt you can learn that.

[Chris Brimley]

Or does the physical size of the box affect the sound?

No one's mentioned this yet, but surely, other things being equal, larger boxes simply produce more bass?  First because larger lumps of wood will resonate more at lower frequencies, and second, because the larger baffle effect reduces the tendency of bass sounds to cancel themselves out by going round corners. (This is the same as the cymbal effect that is so amazing the first time you put your ear close to a cymbal).

[IanD]

Or does the physical size of the box affect the sound?

No one's mentioned this yet, but surely, other things being equal, larger boxes simply produce more bass?  First because larger lumps of wood will resonate more at lower frequencies, and second, because the larger baffle effect reduces the tendency of bass sounds to cancel themselves out by going round corners. (This is the same as the cymbal effect that is so amazing the first time you put your ear close to a cymbal).

Without starting the wood resonance argument again, the difference is the bigger volume of air inside the boxes lowering the resonant frequencies of the enclosed air, not the resonance of the wood itself. And there is no baffle effect, this happens with cymbals because the sound from the two sides is out of phase, but with a melodeon the other side is the inside of the bellows so the sound can't cancel in the same way.

Also bigger boxes often have bigger reed blocks with bigger chambers (and sometimes bigger reeds). This combined with the bigger air volumes means more bass, all other things being equal. So in this case bigger can indeed be better, but not for the reasons stated... ;-)

[Chris Brimley]

And there is no baffle effect, this happens with cymbals because the sound from the two sides is out of phase, but with a melodeon the other side is the inside of the bellows so the sound can't cancel in the same way.

I'll take your word for it, but doesn't the wood on which the reed plates wobble act as a resonator at all, then?

[IanD]

And there is no baffle effect, this happens with cymbals because the sound from the two sides is out of phase, but with a melodeon the other side is the inside of the bellows so the sound can't cancel in the same way.

I'll take your word for it, but doesn't the wood on which the reed plates wobble act as a resonator at all, then?

It shouldn't do; if it does this is when you get things like reeds pulling together. A melodeon isn't at all like a stringed instrument which uses wood/body vibration to generate the sound, it's all to do with air vibration and resonances and cavities -- ideally the body/reed blocks should be rigid and vibrate as little as possible, or they sap energy from the reeds.

[waltzman]

Here's a 33 minute clip of Naragonia for you Arty.  I just found it!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bVjOlXX7uM

[oggiesnr]

Here's a 33 minute clip of Naragonia for you Arty.  I just found it!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bVjOlXX7uM

One of things I noticed on that clip, which the larger boxes may help, is the use of extended pull phrases where a long melody line is being played.  This is similar to how an orthodox  bandoneonist would play a melody, the theory being that pulling the bellows gives more control over the dynamic of the line and the quality of the note.  The bigger boxes (I think) means larger bellows and also a greater choice of notes on the pull.

Steve

[Owen Woods]

I'll take your word for it, but doesn't the wood on which the reed plates wobble act as a resonator at all, then?

It does, but if it does resonate then bad things happen! Remember that there is a big difference between "vibrate" and "resonate". The reedblocks will vibrate, absorbing energy from the reed, which will affect the sound. If they resonate then they will absorb a massive amount of energy from the sound which will sound atrocious.

Basically, in a string instrument, resonance adds to the sound. In a free reed instrument, resonance takes away from it.

[Anahata]

But it's more than all of these things surely. If it were just these things, there would be hundreds of people who play as well as Naragonia. But there aren't, that's why Naragonia stand out.

• "it's not hurting enough"... it take more hours of practice than many people are prepared to put in.
• that practice time has to be driven by a very clear idea of what you want to sound like. That may well be based on what other music you've listened to and like. If you want to sound like Naragonia, you may get a step closer by finding out who they listened to and do the same. Even then you don't know what they really heard, in terms of internal perception and evaluation.
• While practising, you have to have the ear to hear the precise difference between the sound you want and the sound you are making, and know how to adjust your playing to reduce that difference. Neither of those is a trivial skill.
• That relaxed look happens when you have practised enough that you never have to think about notes or technique; you just focus on the music.

The bigger boxes (I think) means larger bellows and also a greater choice of notes on the pull.

Yes, as far as influence of box size goes, I think you've nailed it.

[george garside]

There seems to be agreement that   two really important ingredients  i.e lots of practice and listening are more important than the  size of a box, although this of course will have, for the many reasons given, some effect on the overall sound the thing makes.

But to go back to 'listening'  in many ways we have lost the art of listening, perhaps due to the constant bombardment with noise that is part and parcel of todays living. Nobody goes for a quiet run , its always with some contraption or other stuck in the lugole - nobody contemplates the navel on a bus - again a gadget blasting noise down the lugole - back home the telly does the same  - and some buggers even go to sleep with said gadgetary attached to the head!! .  Stage music - some ceilidh bands included - is blasted out of far more powerful speakers than is reasonably required  and the journey by car even to the corner shop is accompanied  by the blast from 6 or more speakers!!!

I think we need to relearn the art of  enjoying quiet contemplation of the navel  as a starting point to learning the art of listening  listening-  i.e to every little nuance , the lengthening or shortening of notes - the subtle gaps between the notes etc etc that the real masters of any instrument   use ..

 Listening in the same way to every little detail of our own miserable efforts is just as important  as it is only when we start to think about the minute detail   of how we make every note sounds that we can get anywhere near to  producing the sound we want - unless of course we are quite happy to just produe the right notes in the right order!

Me,  not yet at the halfway mark but still trying!

george
 

[Owen Woods]

I wrote about this on my blog: http://ukebert.wordpress.com/2012/11/15/training-your-ears/

The problem is that if you don't blast music into your lughole, you have to listen to the noise pollution which we churn out indiscriminately. However, I do agree with you. In order to be able to listen, you need to get used to quietness. The ear takes around half an hour to adjust to different noise levels (I think), so if you should always make the effort to unwind in a quiet space for at least that long before practising. Apart from anything, being physically and mentally relaxed as well as orally relaxed will help your practice no end!

[george garside]

? take an oralaxative!   ? a fortune to be made by bottling them and flogging them! 

george

[Chris Brimley]

A melodeon isn't at all like a stringed instrument which uses wood/body vibration to generate the sound, it's all to do with air vibration and resonances and cavities -- ideally the body/reed blocks should be rigid and vibrate as little as possible, or they sap energy from the reeds.

I'm really quite surprised that the wood seems to have no function - even if the important mechanism is that variations in internal air pressure make the wood of the case vibrate/resonate, rather than it coming from the reed block directly.  This seems to suggest that the type of wood used is purely cosmetic, in which case surely boxes could be made out of veneered chipboard or mdf or something?  Moreover, why is it that I can easily feel the vibration of the backplate while I'm playing?