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Author Topic: B/C versus D/G  (Read 12538 times)

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Rog

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B/C versus D/G
« on: January 11, 2014, 04:48:46 PM »

It must have been discussed before...but I'm not sure how to find it...
Can someone point me at any threads where the reasons why a  B/C box is prevalent among players of Irish tunes is explained, and why this may or may not enable you to play fast reels etc. I'm curious also to know if any players prefer the D/G for Irish tunes, and whether this handicaps their playing. I've just watched a video of Tim Edey playing an Irish tune on a D/G *very* fast, and it doesn't seem to have hampered his playing.

Theo

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2014, 05:00:26 PM »

I think playing fast is just a matter of practice whatever system you choose.  If you want to play fast.
The BC system gives a different feel and phrasing to the music at least partly because of where in the scale of,  say D, it places the changes of bellows direction, compared to playing along a D row.   
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Boyen

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2014, 05:05:37 PM »

http://thesession.org/discussions/28396 is what I could find.
I've had this choice not too long ago and remember finding lots and lots of topics on the matter, ended up with C#/D in the end. I posted here: http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,13190.0.html and I got some opinions on the matter.

Overall, B/C is just a lot more flexible in tunes as well, it's chromatic, there will be tunes you can't play on the D/G.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 05:08:20 PM by Boyen »
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george garside

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2014, 05:11:00 PM »

Dave Mallinson   (Mally to most people) plays lots of Irish stuff on DG.  I think the main reason for BCC being preferred my the majority of ITM players is down to  ''tradition'  i.e. as the BC, CC# etc boxes were around well before the DG's were invented that is what they played - and that is what was passed on down the generations - and that is what the 'top' players played - and that is what teachers of ITM box playing tought etc etc.

There are of course  those who swear by one system or the other , often with absolutely no experience of playing the system they are not swearing by!   There are also points of view on  the BC generally requiring less ins and outs than the DG played on the row - but then the cross row DG players have their bit to add.

My personal view, as a player of both systems, is that

- either will do the job well provided the skills of the player are good!

- neither will do the job well with a mediocre player!

- the BC does  a far greater veriety of keys than does the DG

- The DG whilst limited in keys offers more sope to 'drive a rhythm' with the bass  ( which many players of ITM don't want anyway)

-  the individual choice  needs to take into consideration  the system being played by the people you will play most with  - go with the flow!

-  It also needs to take into consideration andy desires to play other than ITM and its suitability for such 'other'stuff

george
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Rog

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2014, 05:30:47 PM »

OK, so tradition then and maybe more flexibility on a chromatic box, if you're not bothered about the LH.
I thought there might be an explanation around fluid playing across the rows, or whatever, but it doesn't sound like it.

Rog

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2014, 05:32:49 PM »

http://thesession.org/discussions/28396 is what I could find.
I've had this choice not too long ago and remember finding lots and lots of topics on the matter, ended up with C#/D in the end. I posted here: http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,13190.0.html and I got some opinions on the matter.

Overall, B/C is just a lot more flexible in tunes as well, it's chromatic, there will be tunes you can't play on the D/G.

In what form did the choice take? Were you looking for a new box/first box/something different to try?

Boyen

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2014, 05:46:37 PM »

It is my first box so I started from scratch. I had some mitigating issues though, as I didn't want to play only Irish music on my box but also in C/Amin/Ddorian and A/Bdorian.
Really thinking about it, if you want to play in D and G and all its related modes the D/G is probably the most logical I mean, you got the G the B and the A in two bellow directions of choice while for B/C it's only B and E. With 3 notes for own interpetation you can choose however you want to sound. I would miss the F natural and G# though for tunes in other key as well as tunes that just use accidentals.
Just a final thing, ornamentation, long rolls aren't available if you want to play them traditionally. but you still got the short roll/grace notes/stutter so I don't know if that should let you down.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 05:49:36 PM by Boyen »
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Gromit

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2014, 05:47:05 PM »

I'm a B/C player - when I started playing it seemed to be the "standard" for Irish players now Csharp/D appears to be nearly as popular- Tim Edey I believe plays B/C as well as D/G and probably other systems.
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MatlockBather

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2014, 06:31:32 PM »

As George said, it is tradition that semi tone boxes are used for Irish just as it is now tradition that DG is for English. As mentioned in another recent thread, this was only invented in the 50s so it is a new tradition. The biggest reason for not playing BC if you live in England is that you can't find anybody to teach you - seems to scare alot of folks off!!
I play BC mainly because to my non musical background, having all the keys open to you just makes more sense but so am struggling with playing a decent bass end. To an extent this is down to user error though! I play what ever tunes take my fancy regardless of origin or tradition and I aspire to mediocraty...
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george garside

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2014, 06:37:28 PM »

For anybody within reach of Anglesey I teach BC!! 

The simple answer for BC players wanting to drive a bass rhythm is to go for  one of the rare double rays with 12 stradella.  The box is transformed!

george
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mory

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2014, 07:14:53 PM »

I'm a B/C player - when I started playing it seemed to be the "standard" for Irish players now Csharp/D appears to be nearly as popular- Tim Edey I believe plays B/C as well as D/G and probably other systems.
and C#/D/D#  (:)
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gerrydundee

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2014, 07:36:16 PM »

im curios at the all Ireland championships, do they all play b/c boxes ive seen various videos of this annual competition and always wondered?
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Ollie

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2014, 07:59:58 PM »

im curios at the all Ireland championships, do they all play b/c boxes ive seen various videos of this annual competition and always wondered?

I met a guy in Dublin just after the All-Ireland this year who played a G/D system - it was bizarre!
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Pat.

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2014, 01:46:22 PM »

There is a strong tradition of  B/C box playing in Ireland in the last 55 odd  years ,this is because most of the decent players worked out that this was the best way to interpret the music as they heard it,so a lot the new players naturaly aspired to this  ,but there have always been other systems such as C#/D  D/D# C/C#  and the 2 row D/G box for eg  and many other tunnings ,I think that semitone boxes realy put the Irishness into the music because of all the rolls and cuts etc,but very good music can also be played up and down the row in melodeon style but to do this effectivly great skill is needed so unless you are pretty handy, the B/C is probably the best way to go.This is only my take on it.
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oggiesnr

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2014, 03:02:31 PM »

If the D/G came about by accident in 1950s, so to speak, then prior to that semitone boxes would have been the logical boxes for ITM given the keys that the music was played in.  A quick look through "O'Neils 1,001" shows a preponderance of sharp tunes so C/F and G/C would have been of limited use.

Steve
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The Blues Viking

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2014, 05:30:08 PM »

I don't expect this to be met with a lot of agreement, but I'd like to put in a vote for the A/D system. If you're playing mostly in D, anyway...I find that the bass notes of an A/D are very well suited for playing in D. The chords less so, though taping off thirds might improve that. (I seldom use chords myself; my stroke-addled brain does better the less you give it to confuse it.) I have tried the B/C system (I own a B/C Double Ray, in fact, with the old Hohner B/C bass setup) and it never really appealed to me.

I should say that I'm not much on traditional Irish music, but what I do play of it works well in the A/D even if I seldom manage to sound very Irish.

I am told that players of D/C# Irish-American boxes with eight basses often used the bass setup from an A/D, but I have no idea how true this is.

TBV
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penn

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2014, 07:29:10 PM »

If the D/G came about by accident in 1950s, so to speak, then prior to that semitone boxes would have been the logical boxes for ITM given the keys that the music was played in. 
Another interesting question is - what did they use in England before the 50's? There's a comment http://www.eatmt.org.uk/percy_brown.htm that Percy Brown of Norfolk used a C/C# as well as a D/G. I suppose the answer is "whatever they could get" ...??
Steve
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george garside

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2014, 07:50:55 PM »

sometime  in the fifties me and a mate  both bought  hohner double rays from an accordion dealer in Manchester .  They were the only ''button accordions'' in stock . We hadn't a clue what keys the rows were in  and for  a few years ,as teenagers, we played them on the row in B or C  the choice of row being purely made to ring some changes in the sound!  We thought of it as being the same as a mouthie which we were already playing so we just did the same on the box

Eventually we discovered more by good luck than good management that other keys could be had by starting elsewhere on the  C row and nicking the odd note of the B row!

nobody mentioned  that there were such things as DG boxes and it was many years before I acquired one

george
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Stiamh

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2014, 10:49:21 PM »

I don't expect this to be met with a lot of agreement, but I'd like to put in a vote for the A/D system. If you're playing mostly in D, anyway...I find that the bass notes of an A/D are very well suited for playing in D.

[snip]

I am told that players of D/C# Irish-American boxes with eight basses often used the bass setup from an A/D, but I have no idea how true this is.

C#/D bass setups are usually almost the the same as the A/D layout. They tend to have D-G or E-G instead of the G-G bass-chord pair, but the first thing I would do with either of these is have them changed to G-G - giving the exact same layout as an A/D box. So it ought to be a good layout for D/C# too.

As for the A/D being a good choice for Irish music: you're right, I don't think many will agree with you.  (:) Although you may be playing "mostly in D" (by which I would mean keys with two sharps), a lot of the time you are playing in keys with one sharp (not just G and related minors but D mixolydian as well). This makes A/D unsuitable for a lot of the Irish repertoire - you really need a C-natural somewhere more handy than down at the bottom of the rows.

So a D/G is IMO a much better choice than A/D.

Can someone point me at any threads where the reasons why a  B/C box is prevalent among players of Irish tunes is explained, and why this may or may not enable you to play fast reels etc. I'm curious also to know if any players prefer the D/G for Irish tunes, and whether this handicaps their playing. I've just watched a video of Tim Edey playing an Irish tune on a D/G *very* fast, and it doesn't seem to have hampered his playing.

Roger, as you have noted, a D/G is no handicap as far as speed is concerned. And as far as repertoire is concerned, on a D/G you can play any tune that can be played on a D tin whistle (without the use of half-holing to get accidentals etc.), which adds up to a big chunk of the Irish repertoire. But there's another big chunk that goes beyond that...

It's been pointed out that historically D/G vs. B/C was not a choice open to Irish players. But now that semitone boxes are well established, I think the extra possibilities they offer - being able to play fairly easily in a wider range of keys, never being stuck for accidentals (which are exceedingly conveniently placed), and being able to execute certain twiddly bits that you can't do on a "quint box" - mean that D/G is never going to get a look-in among Irish players.

Frank Lee

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2014, 01:51:38 AM »

Quoting Steve:-  "It's been pointed out that historically D/G vs. B/C was not a choice open to Irish players. But now that semitone boxes are well established, I think the extra possibilities they offer - being able to play fairly easily in a wider range of keys, never being stuck for accidentals (which are exceedingly conveniently placed), and being able to execute certain twiddly bits that you can't do on a "quint box" - mean that D/G is never going to get a look-in among Irish players"

Perhaps it depends what the Irish players want to play.  They don't all play what we imagine they all play, i.e 'diddly' music.  I took an A/D box into a session in Co. Clare. They all wanted to try it and were very taken with the possibilities it offered compared to their 'semitone' boxes; I had a struggle to get it back!   There's  more to Irish music than jigs and reels, and many of the more serious players are exploring other music, and find the possibilities of the 'quint' bass end very interesting.   
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