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Author Topic: B/C versus D/G  (Read 12535 times)

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Curamach

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2014, 07:43:38 PM »

Not a lot of classical music B/C players in these parts! I'll have to work on some of them Bach partitas on my C#/D.
Dan
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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2014, 09:36:20 PM »

I did say to Steve on a different thread, that this level of accomplishment
would not be uncommon amongst Irish musicians, but I am not going to labour the point.
No need, and I'm sure you're right.

For one thing the habit of using chromatic boxes has allowed Irish musicians to play in any key they want generally, and for another I suspect the Irish see a whole spectrum of musical ability from folk music to classical, whereas the English see it more as either one thing or the other, even with a certain amount of inverted snobbery in some parts ("if you can read music you can't play folk properly" is one version of it)

I'll have to work on some of them Bach partitas on my C#/D.
That would be a fine thing to do 8)  Please do it and post a video   (:)
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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2014, 10:42:50 PM »


Johnny Og Connolly has had a go...   I'll leave this up for a day or two - posted without permission.

Without permission for me to view it either...
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Frank Lee

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2014, 12:25:54 AM »

Sorry Steve,  I've been out of contact for a few days so didn't reply to your earlier post.  Not that I've much to offer in terms of concrete evidence I'm afraid, except in my travels I've now met quite a few Irish players who play "other' music, and, from conversations, would obviously welcome the ability to add bass lines and harmonies to their playing.  My experience of Irish music has been in sessions over there, but I never asked or made a note of any names.  I'm sure you're right there isn't going to be a sudden upsurge in popularity of the 'quint' system in Ireland, but I'd be surprised if there isn't some interest.  My Irish repertoire is very limited, but I played a handful of the Irish tunes I knew with added harmonies and basses, and this seemed to surprise quite a few who'd never met the system; certainly there appeared to be serious interest and there were enquiries about where to purchase a 'fifth apart' box.   
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Stiamh

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2014, 02:36:32 PM »

I didn't comment on the so-called "fuss" before now because I wanted to run the situation past some conservatory-trained cellist friends whom I saw at the weekend. Yes, classical musicians have to learn to play in every key, but what Dermot did was more than that. He asked me to name a tune - any tune.

My cellist friends thought that only very few - exceptional - classically trained musicians would be able to play a piece that they knew by heart in every key with equal facility spontaneously, with no advance warning. They themselves certainly wouldn't be able to. But they would be able to play a piece in any key when you put the score in front of them. And players of transposing instruments are used to reading a score in one key and playing it in another. But that isn't what Dermot did.

Now of course it has to be said that Humours of Drinagh and other tunes in Dermot's repertoire are melodically very simple and formulaic compared with the normal diet of classical musicians. But it also has to be said that although the semitone box is chromatic in the sense that all the notes are there, playing in remote keys is particularly challenging because of the changing push-pull patterns and the fact that notes get out of synch across the rows. Playing in Eb on a C#/D box to give just one for example, going up the scale you have to change bellows direction for every note, and your g natural in the second octave is two buttons away from your f natural on the other row, and is also closer to your knee than your Ab. And all the remote keys have pitfalls of this kind. How many orchestral instruments are as counterintuitive as that?

A better comparison actually would be not with classical but with accomplished jazz musicians, who need to be able to play standards in any key without warning. But I haven't seen any of those playing diatonic boxes.  ;)

Gromit

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2014, 03:52:43 PM »

Good answer Steve
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Anahata

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2014, 04:29:31 PM »

My cellist friends thought that only very few - exceptional - classically trained musicians would be able to play a piece that they knew by heart in every key with equal facility spontaneously, with no advance warning. They themselves certainly wouldn't be able to. But they would be able to play a piece in any key when you put the score in front of them.

OK, it's true that not every rank-and-file orchestral player would be able to to do that. Some find it hard to play anything from memory, though they have an amazing ability to sight read anything fluently.

Quote
although the semitone box is chromatic in the sense that all the notes are there, playing in remote keys is particularly challenging because of the changing push-pull patterns and the fact that notes get out of synch across the rows.
It's hard to make comparisons, but typical wind and stringed instruments have similar levels of complexity. Like the button accordion they have a home scale that is easy to play (open the holes, one at a time, like a tin whistle...) and the further away you get in numbers of sharps and flats the more complex the fingering as you have to hit special keys (or combinations of) to get all the in-between notes.

Quote
A better comparison actually would be not with classical but with accomplished jazz musicians, who need to be able to play standards in any key without warning. But I haven't seen any of those playing diatonic boxes.  ;)
Yes, some jazz musicians have all the musical skills at once: reading, picking up by ear and improvising. And all in any key.
In my previous posting I was speaking from personal experience of classical music. The cello was my first instrument.
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LDbosca

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2014, 08:39:13 PM »

It's a great demonstration, but any classically trained musician would wonder what all the fuss was about. You have to learn to play in any key with equal facility. It takes a while to get to know the territory, but then you just do it.

I dunno, I think the on the spot transposition element makes it quite a bit more impressive.

LDbosca

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2014, 08:43:23 PM »

I did say to Steve on a different thread, that this level of accomplishment
would not be uncommon amongst Irish musicians, but I am not going to labour the point.
No need, and I'm sure you're right.

For one thing the habit of using chromatic boxes has allowed Irish musicians to play in any key they want generally, and for another I suspect the Irish see a whole spectrum of musical ability from folk music to classical, whereas the English see it more as either one thing or the other, even with a certain amount of inverted snobbery in some parts ("if you can read music you can't play folk properly" is one version of it)


Sometimes I think that English box players have it in for Irish box players.

george garside

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2014, 08:58:25 PM »

I think that  comment  is   an exaggeration,   a generalisation  and is divisive.   Whilst it may well be true that  a minority of English box players are less than keen on the way some irish box players perform ( and I am sure the reverse is also to true)  most box players appreciate   the efforts of good box players of whatever tradition, even though they may have no desire to play a particular type of music themselves.

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Theo

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2014, 09:12:27 PM »

most box players appreciate   the efforts of good box players of whatever tradition,

Well said George.

I always enjoy my visits to events organised by EATMT in East Anglia where players from Ireland as well as England are often included in the guest list.  I've never been aware of anything but mutual pleasure in shared music when they play together.
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LDbosca

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2014, 09:20:01 PM »

I think that  comment  is   an exaggeration,   a generalisation  and is divisive.   Whilst it may well be true that  a minority of English box players are less than keen on the way some irish box players perform ( and I am sure the reverse is also to true)  most box players appreciate   the efforts of good box players of whatever tradition, even though they may have no desire to play a particular type of music themselves.

george

Of course it's a generalisation. I just feel like I end up reading an awful lot of comments on this board from English players critisizing Irish box playing based on a perceived emphasis on speed/technicality/musical trickery for its own sake, none of which are central to Irish traditional music/box playing.

Anahata

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2014, 09:24:25 PM »

Sometimes I think that English box players have it in for Irish box players.

I fail to see how you drew that conclusion from what I said. For the record, my opinion is entirely the opposite. To spell it out: coming (as mentioned before) from a classical musical training, I am full of admiration for the way that Irish folk musicians take their instrumental technique and musicality to the same levels as classical musicians do. That is not meant to be a put-down in any way.
I don't play Irish music myself: not because I don't like it but because:
- I'm English
- The Irish play their music better than I can! (I used to, I've given it up now)
- There's lots of good English music to be discovered and I enjoy doing that.

I'm really sorry if anything I said came across as negative. It certainly wasn't meant that way.

it may well be true that  a minority of English box players are less than keen on the way some irish box players perform
It may be. I'm not one of them, though I choose to play in a different style.

Quote
most box players appreciate   the efforts of good box players of whatever tradition, even though they may have no desire to play a particular type of music themselves.
Exactly.

(edit: typo in "given it up")
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 10:00:43 PM by Anahata »
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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2014, 09:31:57 PM »

perceived emphasis on speed/technicality/musical trickery for its own sake, none of which are central to Irish traditional music/box playing.

Actually I tend to think of that as applying more to English people playing Irish music.
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LDbosca

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2014, 10:07:00 PM »

I replied after reading another thread that was particularly mired in "those are Irish are trying to play as fast as they can again", so in truth I had that that fresh in my mind and was presensitized if you will.

The reason I took what I did from your comment, Anahata, is that it seemed to imply that Irish box players tend to view musicality as a line, from worst to best (which is obviously ridiculous), and that fits in with a lot of the commonly held misconceptions around here about Irish music. So sorry, you didn't seem to have it in for Irish players, it was just poor timing for me to read another generalisation about a group of musicians.

Theo

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2014, 11:36:48 PM »

Luke, if it is any consolation here's an observation I made a couple of years ago at a festival in England that opened my eyes to the ignorance behind the misapprehension that Irish music is always "too fast".  I overheard a conversation between a few players looking for a pub for a session.  One pub was mentioned and the consensus among the group was that it was just "fast Irish" and therefore not worth joining.   I'd been in that session earlier, though not playing as it happens, and nearly all the music though fast was actually Scottish.  ;)   Make of that what you will.
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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2014, 11:53:46 PM »

I find some peoples ignorance very frustrating , i walked into a session once, and was greeted pleasently, then when i took out my DG paolo soprani, was imediatly met with shouts of "No irish ! " and i said i dont realy play irish tunes ( i do now, but didnt at the time, i was just starting out ) and one guy, not knowing it was DG, said that i had an irish box !
I said no mate, its italian !
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LDbosca

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2014, 01:08:13 AM »

Luke, if it is any consolation here's an observation I made a couple of years ago at a festival in England that opened my eyes to the ignorance behind the misapprehension that Irish music is always "too fast".  I overheard a conversation between a few players looking for a pub for a session.  One pub was mentioned and the consensus among the group was that it was just "fast Irish" and therefore not worth joining.   I'd been in that session earlier, though not playing as it happens, and nearly all the music though fast was actually Scottish.  ;)   Make of that what you will.

Don't start me on that Scottish music ;) irony alert just in case!

I'm probably just getting grumpy with nerves before my gig tomorrow...

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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #58 on: January 28, 2014, 12:55:43 PM »

I play an A/D/G box, and I've been learning ITM for the last few years and I've been learning from joe burke and finbarr dwyer ect. And you can teach yourself to sound pretty much like a semitone player of course not exactly it's just getting the right mind set when learning, you can play pretty much any kind of music on any box if you wanted to
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Re: B/C versus D/G
« Reply #59 on: January 28, 2014, 01:10:44 PM »

Players like Dave Mallinson play wondrous Irish tunes on a D/G box, heaven knows how he does it !
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