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Author Topic: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?  (Read 13726 times)

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Ollie

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Re: Why the "competition element" within Irish box playing?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2014, 08:15:52 PM »

Quote
The problem I have with the Irish competitions is that whilst they are great for encouraging youngsters and it's great for the public profile of the music, is that they lead to homogenisation.

"The one thing that unites all traditional musicians is that they're all unique"

It's a shame you feel that way - has it stopped you entering one? There are regional styles in Irish Trad as there probably are in English Trad - I would have thought the main reason for homogenisation (great word probably would upset some UKIP members though) would be youngsters wanting to sound like the recording artists/bands - Lunasa etc.

Whenever you have someone teaching people a certain style of music, homogenisation is going to happen. It happens in all styles of music, especially classical;unless you're a virtuoso soloist, you need to try and sound like others so you don't stick out in ensemble playing. If you teach people particular techniques of a particular style, then they're all going to sound roughly the same. Add a competition element into it, where you need to try and fit into a particular set of rules and expectations, then it's homogenisation is going to intensify. My limited experience of Comhaltas when I was younger (before I started playing the melodeon) wasn't especially good - I just wanted to play music, not worry about playing in a certain style or following certain conventions.

There aren't competitions in English traditional music, because there's no 'governing body' like there is in Ireland (yes, EFDSS may have once been like this, but they certainly aren't any more). As Theo mentions, there are competitions in Northumbria, but Northumbrian music has more connections with Scotland (another place where competitions are held) than England - even people like Kathryn Tickell don't consider Northumbrian music to be 'English'. Defined regional styles don't really exist in England, apart from perhaps Dartmoor, although tunes from different regions do have stylistic differences, but not enough to create regional styles.
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Mike Averill

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Re: Why the "competition element" within Irish box playing?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2014, 09:04:12 PM »


There aren't competitions in English traditional music, ...

And it shows. Go to your average session or morris side and listen to the dirge of badly played over simplified dross. There are a few exceptions but they are thin on the ground. There are far too many who thing that practicing in public and missing every other note out are the key defining features of English music.
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Ollie

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Re: Why the "competition element" within Irish box playing?
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2014, 09:06:43 PM »


There aren't competitions in English traditional music, ...

And it shows. Go to your average session or morris side and listen to the dirge of badly played over simplified dross. There are a few exceptions but they are thin on the ground. There are far too many who thing that practicing in public and missing every other note out are the key defining features of English music.

Oh, I quite agree. I still don't think that formal learning and competitions are the answer, though.
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malcolmbebb

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Re: Why the "competition element" within Irish box playing?
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2014, 09:10:04 PM »

Why do I get this depressing feeling of deja vu? Is it still folk music if you have to get a diploma to play it in a bar?
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Theo

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Re: Why the "competition element" within Irish box playing?
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2014, 09:17:52 PM »

Is it still folk music if you have to get a diploma to play it in a bar?

That is of course complete bollocks.

All of the music competitions I've seen or taken part in are completely voluntary.  Like other aspects of musical culture they have a useful place in the learning process if that is what any individual player chooses to do.  None of them is compulsory in order to play in a bar or anywhere else.   However the self-discipline that comes with working towards a competition entry can have a very positive effect on ones playing.
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Re: Why the "competition element" within Irish box playing?
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2014, 09:31:10 PM »

There are those in Morris who think that a certain standard must be reached to dance in public.

Mike's post including "badly played over simplified dross" put me very much in mind of that debate.

I take the view that we should aspire, both in public dancing and public playing, to the best quality that we can manage, but attempts to "enforce" a standard are, at best, unhelpful.

Competitions are, as Theo says, optional. 
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Why the "competition element" within Irish box playing?
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2014, 09:36:10 PM »

Actually there are competitions in England for players of folk and traditional music.  Annual festivals at Rothbury, Morpeth and Alnwick all have classes for a wide range of instruments both solo and ensemble, composition, and singing and dialect prose and poetry.

Actually once entered Alnwick. Border ballads were OK so I did the only one I'd actually collected myself. "Scottish" it would seem: summarily disqualified. ::)

I'm all for such events if beauty, and sensitivity to the Tradition are the criteria. But I wouldn't personally penalise a candidate for "moving things on". Grateful for George's reassurance that it isn't about velocity (obviously without wrong notes) ;)
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Re: Why the "competition element" within Irish box playing?
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2014, 09:50:06 PM »

All of the music competitions I've seen or taken part in are completely voluntary.  Like other aspects of musical culture they have a useful place in the learning process if that is what any individual player chooses to do.  None of them is compulsory in order to play in a bar or anywhere else.   However the self-discipline that comes with working towards a competition entry can have a very positive effect ones playing.
    I suppose my late night musings are answered by this.
    And in reality I realise that it isn't a clear cut concept for competition. Didn't mean any ill feelings- I attributed competition to Irish box playing because of a Fleadh held in Northern Ireland (L'derry, Derry, Stroke City- you know the place  (:)) last year that I saw highlights of. There was a great video on Youtube of a session in a pub- I can't find the video- but I was astounded by the musicianship I saw. Everyone played with such accuracy within the session (different instruments, mandolins, banjo's, whistles etc) together and really made a beautiful noise. I thought that to judge musicians such as that would've been a bloomin' hard job- I wouldn't want it.  :D
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Re: Why the "competition element" within Irish box playing?
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2014, 09:58:37 PM »

The only competition I've ever entered on melodeon was the one at Sidmouth, organised by The Music Room. "Squeezy" John Spiers was another contestant, long before S&B fame. Neither of us won but we made friends with each other at that event and I don't think it did either of our reputations any harm.

the self-discipline that comes with working towards a competition entry can have a very positive effect on ones playing.
It certainly does!
I don't know which side to be on with this. Playing standards do go up when there are competitions, but a competitive culture also has undesirable side effects, possibly when everyone takes it too seriously.

So Ollie : what do we do to raise standards in English music, while still leaving room for people to enjoy themselves playing it?
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Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2014, 10:18:08 PM »

give prizes for the most enjoyable music?  ::)
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2014, 10:37:15 PM »

SO, for all the above, basic codswallop, who will judge? Simon Cowell!,
Music appreciation is in the ear of the beholder. Bring on Amanda Holden.  :-[
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Ollie

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Re: Why the "competition element" within Irish box playing?
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2014, 10:43:48 PM »

The only competition I've ever entered on melodeon was the one at Sidmouth, organised by The Music Room. "Squeezy" John Spiers was another contestant, long before S&B fame. Neither of us won but we made friends with each other at that event and I don't think it did either of our reputations any harm.

the self-discipline that comes with working towards a competition entry can have a very positive effect on ones playing.
It certainly does!
I don't know which side to be on with this. Playing standards do go up when there are competitions, but a competitive culture also has undesirable side effects, possibly when everyone takes it too seriously.

So Ollie : what do we do to raise standards in English music, while still leaving room for people to enjoy themselves playing it?

I don't think we need to do anything. Look at the standards of the players in the younger generation these days - it's better than it's ever been. I'm not quite sure why, but whatever it is seems to be working...
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2014, 10:46:11 PM »

And no one better qualified than you Ollie. ;D
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Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2014, 11:07:12 PM »

I think you would have to agree that these guys have distinct and individual styles.

Very distinct. But it seems they both like Billy McComiskey tunes.  (:)

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Re: Why the "competition element" within Irish box playing?
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2014, 11:09:41 PM »


I don't think we need to do anything. Look at the standards of the players in the younger generation these days - it's better than it's ever been. I'm not quite sure why, but whatever it is seems to be working...


Yet you're the one who used melodeon for your A'Level music which seems like the height of competitive box playing to me, risking your university place on the result :)

Steve
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Ollie

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Re: Why the "competition element" within Irish box playing?
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2014, 11:24:47 PM »


..The problem I have with the Irish competitions is that whilst they are great for encouraging youngsters and it's great for the public profile of the music, is that they lead to homogenisation.


In order to illustrate that Irish box players are not automatons (homogenized or otherwise),
I have selected two of the fleadh winners for your delectation.
I think you would have to agree that these guys have distinct and individual styles.

Christopher Maguire (2013)
Damien Mullane (2007)

I never said they were, and of course there are exceptions (fantastic clips, both of them), I just think there being a 'right' and 'wrong' way to do things is a dangerous path to go down in traditional music.


I don't think we need to do anything. Look at the standards of the players in the younger generation these days - it's better than it's ever been. I'm not quite sure why, but whatever it is seems to be working...


Yet you're the one who used melodeon for your A'Level music which seems like the height of competitive box playing to me, risking your university place on the result :)

Steve

A level music isn't competitive box playing - there aren't any other boxes to compete with! You're judged on the quality of your performance, rather than your specific technical ability (obviously, being technically good helps with a good performance). I don't really see any of the performance exams I've taken as milestones in my playing (the lessons I've had at university are another matter...), they've certainly never phased me any more or less than a gig.
I wouldn't say I risked my university place because I chose to play the melodeon. Yes, there were some places that I probably couldn't have applied for, like music college, but I didn't want to go there. Every institution I applied for gave me a place, so it didn't seem to matter to them. That said, none of them were performance heavy degrees - academic interests matter far more.
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Gromit

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Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2014, 11:42:45 PM »

Quote
....is that they lead to homogenisation

I'd be interested to see some examples of this homogenisation
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Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2014, 11:46:01 PM »

Quote
....is that they lead to homogenisation

I'd be interested to see some examples of this homogenisation

Yeah, I got it, let's milk the thread.  ;)
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Theo

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Re: Why the "competition element" within Irish box playing?
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2014, 11:48:17 PM »

I just think there being a 'right' and 'wrong' way to do things is a dangerous path to go down in traditional music.

There is a subversive tendency sometimes in the Northumbrian competitions where occasionally a competition entrant who is a very good player will deliberately play something that goes outside the conventional view of "the tradition".  The judge is then in a dilemma between crediting a great performance or sticking strictly to the rules, marking down the performance, and risking the displeasure of the audience! ;D  It's all good clean fun really.
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Ollie

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Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2014, 12:15:16 AM »

Quote
....is that they lead to homogenisation

I'd be interested to see some examples of this homogenisation

Yeah, I got it, let's milk the thread.  ;)

To be fair, the issue of virtuosity, homogentiy and elitism is a huge and very interesting topic, one that cannot really be covered by a thread on an internet forum.

Gromit - I'll try and come up with something to show what I mean, but at the moment I have an impending deadline tomorrow, so it'll have to wait a bit!
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