Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?  (Read 13727 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Howard Jones

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1117
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2014, 08:57:52 AM »

The intention of CCE was and is to preserve traditional styles of playing.  They were fortunate in having a still living tradition which whilst under-appreciated at the time could at least be built upon. Of course there is always a danger that this leads to things being codified and becoming stultified, and it can perhaps inhibit innovation (although that simply happens anyway outside the CCE framework).  Like any organisation the politics and in-fighting can take over.  However if it raises standards of playing whilst keeping players grounded in the tradition that can't be an entirely bad thing.

I think it is rather a pity that something similar couldn't have happened in England.  By the time we woke up to the existence of an English tradition it was largely moribund.  Only a handful of modern players were able to sit alongside traditional players on a regular basis, and there were only a few precious recordings available, so most of us learned the music second or third hand from revival players rather than original sources.  There were few opportunities for formal teaching so most of us taught ourselves in isolation.  There wasn't the insistence on adhering to a tradition so an "anything goes" attitude arose - which is part of the attraction of playing this music, but could also be said to result in generally lower standards at many sessions.  The fact that even someone as well-informed as Ollie can say that there are no regional styles of playing shows how far this has gone - tell that to East Anglian Music Trust.  There is now greater awareness and greater analysis of traditional styles of playing, but the damage is done. 

Having said that, I must confess that my own style draws more on John Kirkpatrick and Andy Cutting than on Oscar Woods and Bob Cann.  And when I was young and arrogant, I probably wouldn't have wanted anything to do with something so formal.  I'm older and possibly a little wiser (or at least less dogmatic) now.

Nick Collis Bird

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3785
  • Been squeezing melodeons for over 48 years (badly)
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2014, 09:35:11 AM »

How sad your post and how right you are. I did have the privilege of meeting and playing with both of them, but music and tradition are a living thing like language. For instance, what does MILF or IMHO  mean. We progress and it leaves a lot of us old gits behind.
Competitions won't make any difference.
Could it be that Beethoven and  Bach and Mozart were in competitions.
I dread the thought.  >:(
  However, having written this,  I realise that there are competitions. The top ten, Top of the Pops ?
  I'll get me coat! But it's got too many notes in it.  ;D
Logged
Has anyone heard of the song. “ Broken Alarm-clock Blues” ? It starts   “I woke up this Afternoon”

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13729
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2014, 09:39:04 AM »

The intention of CCE was and is to preserve traditional styles of playing.  They were fortunate in having a still living tradition which whilst under-appreciated at the time could at least be built upon.


And for the past generation or two English folk has been in the process of re-inventing itself.   Its a process that must take some time - long enough in fact for a core of inspiring players to emerge and act as the nucleus around which a range of styles emerge.  I think this can be seen happening now with the likes of Kirkpatrick, Cutting and a good number of others playing different instruments, singing and step dancing and generally being an inspiration to the rest of us.   Of course the exception to this is Northumberland where there has been a continuous tradition.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2014, 10:11:04 AM »

Last time I met up with Dave Roberts I had the pleasure of saying that I though he had been a major agent in changing English melodeon style (in bringing over European ways). I'd say Andy Cutting got it from Dave (though he's move it on massively).  Obviously there are many others .. Rod Stadling etc.

John K .. is himself!
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Gromit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 519
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2014, 12:45:15 PM »

I used to know Dave Roberts from partys and stuff in the 70's - wasn't he an early member of Blowzabella, I didn't realise he was a well regarded melodian player
Logged

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6359
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2014, 01:04:07 PM »

I used to know Dave Roberts from partys and stuff in the 70's - wasn't he an early member of Blowzabella, I didn't realise he was a well regarded melodian player

He was in Blowzabella. He was also one of the players featured in the "English Melodeon Players" Album (Plant Life Records Limited, 1986)
The whole list was: Martin Ellison, Tony Hall, Dave Roberts, Roger Watson, Edward II & The Red Hot Polkas
JK and Bob Cann conspicuously absent! And Andy Cutting, but maybe he was too young then...
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh band: www.barleycoteband.co.uk

deltasalmon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 991
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2014, 01:04:30 PM »

He seems pretty impressive here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rzRdgsquak
Logged
Sean McGinnis
Bordentown City, NJ, USA

Castagnari Benny ADG

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2014, 04:08:24 PM »

I used to know Dave Roberts from partys and stuff in the 70's - wasn't he an early member of Blowzabella, I didn't realise he was a well regarded melodian player

Certainly a well regarded party animal! Our immediate previous encounter was a pub crawl in Amsterdam when Dave insisted we had a "Genever" stomach liner before each beer ...  Looks like he joined Blowzabella soon after recovering from that hangover! Top technique?  Well "not bad", but importantly he had that wider horizon ...
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Howard Jones

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1117
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2014, 08:39:55 PM »

t generation or two English folk has been in the process of re-inventing itself.   Its a process that must take some time - long enough in fact for a core of inspiring players to emerge and act as the nucleus around which a range of styles emerge. 

That's very true, and the standard of the best players is now astonishingly good.  However the range of styles which are now emerging draw only partially on traditional English styles and have also absorbed other influences.  Andy Cutting is hugely inspiring and hugely influential, but draws far more on continental styles than on traditional English.  I can think of relatively few modern players who have consciously tried to replicate the old styles of playing, and this applies to other instruments besides melodeon. The vast mass of us (and I include myself) have evolved a mongrel style taken from all sorts of influences.  With a few exceptions, we don't have a surviving body of traditional musicians to refer to the way the Irish can go back to the "pure drop", and neither do we have an organisation like CCE which (with all its faults) tries to instill traditional styles and values.

The upside of this is that the English now have arguably a more dynamic and varied musical scene which is less concerned with a "right" way of doing things and more willing to embrace (sometimes startling) new ideas.  However I can't help but regret that we've lost something along the way.

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2014, 12:04:40 AM »

Excellent synthesis of the English position, Howard.  I'd see all this cross-cultural stuff as essentially positive, but have to accept they there is an alternative point of view.

Are we off topic, yet?  ;)
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Howard Jones

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1117
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2014, 08:41:29 AM »

Chris, I think it's largely positive too, and like I said my own style draws on many influences, including Andy Cutting.  However I also think we've lost something which the Irish and Scots (and Northumbrians) have managed to preserve.

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13729
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2014, 08:54:55 AM »

Possibly one thing that has been lost to some extent is the range of instruments being played.  When I venture south I find that the dominant session instrument is the melodeon, as it is also in Morris bands.  In Northumberland a session is much more likely to be mainly fiddles, with a variety of others.  Last night for example the session I went to included 5 fiddles, 2 melodeons(one DG one GC) 1 cello, 1 recorder, 1 piano and unusually an electric bass. And some of the regular fiddle players were absent
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Nick Collis Bird

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3785
  • Been squeezing melodeons for over 48 years (badly)
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2014, 09:55:09 AM »

Possibly one thing that has been lost to some extent is the range of instruments being played.  When I venture south I find that the dominant session instrument is the melodeon, as it is also in Morris bands.  In Northumberland a session is much more likely to be mainly fiddles, with a variety of others.  Last night for example the session I went to included 5 fiddles, 2 melodeons(one DG one GC) 1 cello, 1 recorder, 1 piano and unusually an electric bass. And some of the regular fiddle players were absent

Well! There you have it Theo, down South we call it the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra!   >:E
Logged
Has anyone heard of the song. “ Broken Alarm-clock Blues” ? It starts   “I woke up this Afternoon”

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2014, 10:10:30 AM »

Chris, I think it's largely positive too, and like I said my own style draws on many influences, including Andy Cutting.  However I also think we've lost something which the Irish and Scots (and Northumbrians) have managed to preserve.

Change seems to be part of the human condition. You've just taken me back 16 years or so to when we had le Tron and his Breton group Maubisson staying with us after a gig (Mrs Ryall liked her houses big!) After dinner a noisy and vigourous debate broke out (en français) amongst them as to whether they were destroying the soul of Breton music, etc, etc. Various "French dance" types chipping in as best they could.  I thought at one point it might become physical.

There's a balance to be struck, and even back :Ph on the Irish West Coast I've heard people bending it, once through with a Blue feel and so on. Actually the halftone box is almost made for that sort of thing.

I personally feel the thing that defines a tradition is mainly its rhythm (including things like "attack"). Notes have always changed, or simply (as per Morris villages) been misheard or misremembered.
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Andrew Wigglesworth

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1101
  • 07
    • My website
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2014, 10:49:40 AM »

Possibly one thing that has been lost to some extent is the range of instruments being played.  When I venture south I find that the dominant session instrument is the melodeon, as it is also in Morris bands.  In Northumberland a session is much more likely to be mainly fiddles, with a variety of others.  Last night for example the session I went to included 5 fiddles, 2 melodeons(one DG one GC) 1 cello, 1 recorder, 1 piano and unusually an electric bass. And some of the regular fiddle players were absent

I'm not sure how "south" you count us in Coventry, Midlands we'd like to think, but at my regular session we rarely get another melodeon player, it fact it's more likely to be a piano accordion. They do turn up occasionally, but melodeons are always outnumbered by fiddles.

Aside from festival type fun, I prefer a smaller session, so more than a couple of boxes and I feel they are in danger of dominating (depending upon players) and more than three fiddles and you feel like you're in an orchestra string section :- :P

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13729
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2014, 11:06:38 AM »

That sounds very nice Andrew. I think we would enjoy each other's sessions!
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Howard Jones

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1117
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2014, 11:20:42 AM »

Possibly one thing that has been lost to some extent is the range of instruments being played. 

I think I have to disagree with that, although I agree there may be a north/south fiddle/melodeon divide.  When I think about English music sessions at national events such ECMW for example, which are arguably fairly representative of the English music movement nationally, the usual fiddles, melodeons and concertinas are frequently joined by saxes, clarinets, recorders and whistles, trombones and other brass, hammered dulcimers, banjos, mandolins, mouth organs, pipes, mouth organs, the occasional harp ... I could go on.  In this respect I think English music is more open-minded and receptive to new ideas than Irish music, where even a guitar can provoke heated debate among purists.

Cooper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 695
  • Gaillrd G/C/#,Casta Allain8 GC,Lofft CF, giord ad
    • Cooper's homepage
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2014, 11:36:29 AM »

Andy Cutting is hugely inspiring and hugely influential, but draws far more on continental styles than on traditional English.
Here's voice from the continent. To me Cutting doesnt sound continental at all, i hear mostly Britain there. If i have to go in detail, i wuold say that his choice of tunes and compositions are somewhere in between English and continental, but his way of playing sounds not like anything over here.

W
Logged
Please correct my English, it's been a while, and i like to learn.
And don't be so polite! I know i must be typing tons of stuff that a native speaker would say differently...please enlighten me.

www.wouterkuyper.nl
www.lirio.nl
www.trekzakacademie.nl

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6359
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #58 on: January 22, 2014, 12:00:50 PM »

Aside from festival type fun, I prefer a smaller session, so more than a couple of boxes and I feel they are in danger of dominating (depending upon players) and more than three fiddles and you feel like you're in an orchestra string section :- :P

I agree that too many boxes isn't a good thing. If you're going to have a lot of one instrument in a session, the fiddle would be my choice, There's something about the blend of the sound from several well played fiddles together - call it an orchestra string section if you like, but what's wrong with that? I've had some great musical experiences surrounded by four good fiddlers in a session!

I wonder if Theo's main experience of southern sessions is the EATMT Trad Music Day at Stowmarket. That, because of its East Anglian location and maybe Katie's influence, is a particularly melodeon-heavy gathering.
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh band: www.barleycoteband.co.uk

Sage Herb

  • Steve Harrison
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 762
  • Slaithwaite, UK
    • The Black Box Band
Re: Why the "competition element", for example, within Irish box playing?
« Reply #59 on: January 22, 2014, 03:25:53 PM »

Aside from festival type fun, I prefer a smaller session, so more than a couple of boxes and I feel they are in danger of dominating (depending upon players) and more than three fiddles and you feel like you're in an orchestra string section :- :P

I agree that too many boxes isn't a good thing. If you're going to have a lot of one instrument in a session, the fiddle would be my choice, There's something about the blend of the sound from several well played fiddles together - call it an orchestra string section if you like, but what's wrong with that? I've had some great musical experiences surrounded by four good fiddlers in a session!
Totally agree - more than a couple of boxes and I'm digging out the gob-harps. Several well played fiddles together is wonderful - and my mouth organs can blend well. And also agree with Andrew's and Theo's preference for small sessions - 6 to 8 is ideal for my taste. But as ever, YMMV.
Cheers
Steve
Logged
Hohner Erikas & Club 2s
Hohner gob-harps:
Vega Senator 5-string banjo; Alex Burns plectrum guitar

Black Box Band - www.theblackboxband.co.uk
Annie Dearman & Steve Harrison - www.dearmanharrison.co.uk
Phoenix - www.phoenixdanceband.co.uk
http://soundcloud.com/sage-herb
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal