Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Graham Spencer]

I'd never heard the expression 'quint box' until I started coming on here, and it doesn't make much sense to me. 

Same here

neither had I thought of it as having a 'home key', or rather having two home keys but neither dominant over the other.

Same here again.

[nigelr]

Quad and quart are horrid, but quint is misleading. Fourth apart is a bit boring. Any other suggestions? Melnet is a big enough body that if we decide something it has a realistic chance of being adopted.

How about "perfect interval"

[Steve_freereeder]

Fourth apart is a bit boring...

But at least most people will understand what is meant by the term. If we cook up some fancy bit of jargon on this forum, it will still not mean anything to anyone not resident in this mad parish.

[george garside]

perhaps we should use vehicular terminology and refer to them as 2 x4's

george

[Ranzo]

However, the great majority of the early (mainly morris) material that the Kennedy inspired boxes were used for is in G and by default we have come to regard G as the home key, hence a fifth apart (following convention and going upwards)  and so a quint box.

Something like this sounds very likely.

I don't use either term... much less does it even matter a smidge what I say.

But how I think about it — for what it's worth — is that there is a home key. The inner row on the 2 row accordion, likewise the top row on 2-row concertina, is the home key. It just so happens that the outer row of the accordion sound lower, and the other row on concertina sounds higher, but that is just a technical issue of play—not a music theory issue—and I am thinking in terms of music theory. And one is thinking primarily of play along the rows, one tends to be thinking of these instruments as offering two keys.

A "D/G" melodeon is an instrument "in G." That may not be what people call it of course!—or how they think about it in the melodeon culture of England for example. But I feel from looking at the German literature for the instrument, and how the whole layout was conceived, especially for the "common practice" Germanic-type music of the 19th century, inner row = home key is how things were intended.

This is partly because the dominant is the most likely key to modulate to. In sonata form, for example, one goes I - V - I. Likewise, in a set of tunes like polkas, one would modulate to the dominant (fifth away) key, before returning to the home key. The bass buttons are set up to offer the most essential needs for this; they are also oriented towards the inner as the home key. 

If one has this concept of the home key, which is the inner row (top row on German concertina), then the "other" key is the dominant—the key of V. Doesn't matter what the actual up or down interval is. Everyone knows the inversion of the interval of a fifth is a fourth; what matters is the keys, not the intervals. It's a "tonic-dominant accordion" 

Well, what matters to me is that. But I am an oddball that got my first theoretical exposure to the instruments through 19th c. tutor books.

To other people, probably most people, it matter not at all! More power to them.

[Guy]

Fourth apart is a bit boring.

I like acronyms....how about FA then? That covers both "Fourth apart" and "Fifth apart".....

[ladydetemps]

Quad and quart are horrid, but quint is misleading. Fourth apart is a bit boring. Any other suggestions? Melnet is a big enough body that if we decide something it has a realistic chance of being adopted.

I'm sure you can call it what you like. I will call it a 'Wibble' from hence forward.....maybe it will catch on?

[malcolmbebb]

I like acronyms....how about FA then? That covers both "Fourth apart" and "Fifth apart".....

Also the amount that most people care?

[Earbrass]

I'm sure you can call it what you like. I will call it a 'Wibble' from hence forward.....maybe it will catch on?

I like the sound of having "a squeeze on the Wibble-box" - reminiscent of Ken Dodd's "a quick burst on me banjo" (for older readers).

I like acronyms....how about FA then? That covers both "Fourth apart" and "Fifth apart".....

Also the amount that most people care?

 

[Helena Handcart]

I'm sure you can call it what you like. I will call it a 'Wibble' from hence forward.....maybe it will catch on?

I like the sound of having "a squeeze on the Wibble-box" - reminiscent of Ken Dodd's "a quick burst on me banjo" (for older readers).

I like the sound of that too but think I shall persist in referring to mine as 'the wooden handbag' (on which one does sideways typing). 

[Owen Woods]

However, the great majority of the early (mainly morris) material that the Kennedy inspired boxes were used for is in G and by default we have come to regard G as the home key, hence a fifth apart (following convention and going upwards)  and so a quint box.

Something like this sounds very likely.

I don't use either term... much less does it even matter a smidge what I say.

But how I think about it — for what it's worth — is that there is a home key. The inner row on the 2 row accordion, likewise the top row on 2-row concertina, is the home key. It just so happens that the outer row of the accordion sound lower, and the other row on concertina sounds higher, but that is just a technical issue of play—not a music theory issue—and I am thinking in terms of music theory. And one is thinking primarily of play along the rows, one tends to be thinking of these instruments as offering two keys.

A "D/G" melodeon is an instrument "in G." That may not be what people call it of course!—or how they think about it in the melodeon culture of England for example. But I feel from looking at the German literature for the instrument, and how the whole layout was conceived, especially for the "common practice" Germanic-type music of the 19th century, inner row = home key is how things were intended.

This is partly because the dominant is the most likely key to modulate to. In sonata form, for example, one goes I - V - I. Likewise, in a set of tunes like polkas, one would modulate to the dominant (fifth away) key, before returning to the home key. The bass buttons are set up to offer the most essential needs for this; they are also oriented towards the inner as the home key. 

If one has this concept of the home key, which is the inner row (top row on German concertina), then the "other" key is the dominant—the key of V. Doesn't matter what the actual up or down interval is. Everyone knows the inversion of the interval of a fifth is a fourth; what matters is the keys, not the intervals. It's a "tonic-dominant accordion" 

Well, what matters to me is that. But I am an oddball that got my first theoretical exposure to the instruments through 19th c. tutor books.

To other people, probably most people, it matter not at all! More power to them.

Nice theory Ranzo and I think it makes sense. I agree that the inner row is the home row in terms of how the german instrument was designed. I must admit to thinking of it as such - not so much because of the RH but because of the left. The bass is set up for playing in G, not playing in D.

[Chris Ryall]

I like acronyms....how about FA then? That covers both "Fourth apart" and "Fifth apart".....

Also the amount that most people care?

  If we are to be in any way consistent with the "half-tone" notation then (logically) it is either a 3½-tone or 4½-tone box, depending on which way up you hold it.  But as we all love our boxes so much ..  "sweet FA" is probably about right

[Bob Ellis]

This forum seems to be the only place where terms like 'quint' and 'quart' are used much and they are misleading because there is no common understanding of what they mean among forum members. Moreover, people outside the forum seem largely unaware of the terms - I, for one, had never heard of them before joining melodeon.net.

So, what do other people call these boxes? The most widely used terms seem to be D/G, G/C, etc. This nomenclature has two clear advantages: (1) it tells you in two simple letters not only whether the box is a fourth apart but also the keys the in which it is tuned; (2) it is equally applicable to other systems e.g. B/C, C#D. However, we should also standardise on naming the key of the outside row first. Most people do that, but there is a minority who refer to D/G boxes as G/D, which is an entirely different animal.

If we could standardise on this two-letter nomenclature, disagreements over terms like 'quint' and 'quart' would be avoided.

[Lester]

Why do we need a descriptor at all? I have never heard D/G, C/F etc referred too as either quint or quad anywhere other than here. Describing a box as a 4th apart or whatever still leaves you needing to say it's a D/G or C/F etc which makes the first bit redundant.

Seems Bob amnd I are of one mind but he pressed post first 

[Earbrass]

Why do we need a descriptor at all? I have never heard D/G, C/F etc referred too as either quint or quad anywhere other than here. Describing a box as a 4th apart or whatever still leaves you needing to say it's a D/G or C/F etc which makes the first bit redundant.

But when discussing technique, fingering etc, one will sometimes wish to say things that are true for all Wibble (or "quint" as I believe they were once called) boxes but not applicable to semitone (Wobble?) boxes and vice versa.

[Lester]

Why do we need a descriptor at all? I have never heard D/G, C/F etc referred too as either quint or quad anywhere other than here. Describing a box as a 4th apart or whatever still leaves you needing to say it's a D/G or C/F etc which makes the first bit redundant.

But when discussing technique, fingering etc, one will sometimes wish to say things that are true for all Wibble (or "quint" as I believe they were once called) boxes but not applicable to semitone (Wobble?) boxes and vice versa.

But if you are discussing technique on a 'semitone (Wobble?) box' I would have thought it would be essential to state whether it is saya  C/C# or B/C as the technique is entirely different. Similarly the technique differences between D/G and G/C or, even, D/G 3rd and D/G 4th button start, makes stating the full description important. So I believe my original point stands.

[Howard Jones]

The bass is set up for playing in G, not playing in D.

The bass has G-C-D chords for playing in G and D-G-A chords for playing in D.  In what way is it "set up" for playing in G? 

I'm not disagreeing with you, but can you please explain this comment for the benefit of someone who has little music theory? (and what I think I understand is probably wrong!)

[OrchardAshley90]

What I meant by who cares? Is that like other people have said quint box ect is only really said on here I never heard of it till now. I mean you know what kind of box you are playing, in in real life when someone asks you about your box, you normally just say(well I do) the make of the thing and the key, you don't say it's a quint box cause that tells them nothing. And to be honest it's not really music theory

[Owen Woods]

The bass is set up for playing in G, not playing in D.

The bass has G-C-D chords for playing in G and D-G-A chords for playing in D.  In what way is it "set up" for playing in G? 

I'm not disagreeing with you, but can you please explain this comment for the benefit of someone who has little music theory? (and what I think I understand is probably wrong!)

Sure! You do have I, IV and V for both keys, but in G you also have II, III and VI, whereas in D you only have II and VI. Bmin is useful in G as a chord, but the bass note is hugely useful, as it open up enormous possibilities for bass runs which you just don't have in D.

In G, the longest bass run that you can do is 6 notes on the bass end. In D it is only 3 notes.

[Brian Rawcliffe]

Quad and quart are horrid, but quint is misleading. Fourth apart is a bit boring. Any other suggestions? Melnet is a big enough body that if we decide something it has a realistic chance of being adopted.

Perhaps as its a Fourth apART we could call it a F ART box or more politely, a PHART BOX.  But then that could also describe the sound of a one row too, so perhaps not...