Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[rees]

Referring to the comments on the home key being on the inside row. This is certainly not the case in Southern USA or Mexico.
Their instruments are always defined by theoutside row.
GCF is a G accordion. ADG is an A accordion. FBbEb is an F accordion.

[Howard Jones]

OK thanks, that makes sense. 

So where did this term 'quint box' come from?  I've done a brief google and 'quint tuning' seems to mean different things in different contexts.  It is used to define harmonics when tuning xylophones, bells and similar instruments- setting this harmonic reinforces the note and creates a brighter sound.  It's also used in organs.  I came across a reference in Mudcat to a 6-stop one-row melodeon where one stop brought in a set of 'quint' reeds for the same purpose, and the same thread also refers to a similarly tuned harmonica. 

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=77115

There is also a quint free bass system for accordions. 

Did someone come across the term, misundertand it and mistakenly apply to melodeons, and it stuck?

[squeezy]

I never really understand this kind of discussion.  The purpose of language (especially English) is not to make each word accurately represent the thing it's talking about.  The only important thing with language is that most people agree on what the word is and know what it refers to.  If people are already using a word for something on a regular basis then trying to enforce change is like trying to hold back the tide.

We still call the barnacle goose by that name despite the fact that we found out a very long time ago that it actually lays eggs and doesn't in fact hatch out of barnacles.  It has been used as the name by everyone for ever and so that is it's correct name regardless of it's derivation.

"Quint box" seems to be a term that has sprung out of the existence of melnet - if not I imagine it's used more here than anywhere else - I never felt the need to have a word for that keyboard layout before I heard it here ... but it's been a useful shorthand on several occasions.  Everyone seems to know what it means ... and I would argue that because the fluidity of language exists in our little microcosm just like it does in the bigger world, "quint box" is the correct term for a melodeon with the inside row a fourth higher than the outside row

... until the majority of people routinely use another word for it of course 

[Chris Ryall]

.
    [ Post removed at member's request ]

[bellowpin]

I'd never heard the expression 'quint box' until I started coming on here, and it doesn't make much sense to me.  And as an anglo player, the fourth v fifth difference between the rows which Steve refers to is crucial.  But neither had I thought of it as having a 'home key', or rather having two home keys but neither dominant over the other.

With reference to another current thread, being entirely self-taught I never bothered about such matters and just played it.

can any one fill in the history, how it all started and developed into the melodeon that we know today.   the german concertina with rows a fifth apart, and the melodeon a fourth apart??    there must have been a common ancestor in germany one hundred and fifty years ago.
 on a anglo concertina is the row nearest the hand considered to be the "secondary" one??        are we just argueing over which is the "primary"row.                 confused brian....

[Graham Spencer]

       are we just argueing over which is the "primary"row.                 confused brian....

Probably more over whether there IS a "primary" row.

[Anahata]

By the time I saw Ranzo's post mentioning the use of Roman numerals for relative chords e.g. "I-V-I" I'd already thought we could use the term "I - IV" or even in standard numerals, call it a "1-4" box.

Short and snappy enough, should satisfy the pedants (I'm for dropping "quint" if it's not too late), easy to say and most people should understand what is meant even if they've never seen it used before.

You could even use 1-4-7 for as a generic label for three rows like ADG and GCF, indeed the 4 row Steiriche Harmonikas would be 1-4-7-10!

This nomenclature doesn't work for semitone boxes, but "semitone" in that context works perfectly, so let it be.

[Bob Ellis]

This '1-4' idea has the same problem as the term 'quint': it could become common parlance on this forum (although I doubt it), but it is unlikely to be understood or gain credence in the wider world. I'm sticking with D/G, D/G/acc., B/C etc. It works and everyone understands it.

[deltasalmon]

All this is because people call (using Anahata's new nomenclature) 1-4 boxes a "quint" box, where a quint box should really describe a 1-5 box. Do people talk about 1-5 boxes enough that there is confusion?

It seems the debate of the term "quint" box is more about pedantry rather than confusion caused by the term.

I don't play quint or quad boxes though so when a decision is made tell me what to call it and that's what I'll call it 

[Anahata]

I'm sticking with D/G, D/G/acc., B/C etc. It works and everyone understands it.

That's fine when we're talking about specific keys, but doesn't work so well when we're discussing generic differences between semitone and "fourth-apart" boxes.

[squeezy]

Here's a thought ... why don't we call them 2 row or 3 row melodeons?  Players of semitone boxes in Ireland and Scotland call their instruments button boxes or button accordions so there's an obvious distinction there already.

I don't understand the need for a new word to be coined that means "quint" in the way we've all been using the term and understanding it here for years.  Is it because some people here want it to have a more accurate etymology?  Or is it looking for a term that will be cool and snappy  so we can advertise and get every kid in the country wanting a melodeon instead of a guitar?

And if a new word eventually emerges from this thread ... am I going to be obliged to use it here instead of the many other pre-existing words to describe the same thing?

 

[Theo]

Just to complete the confusion with an irrelevant factions I see that the interval of a fourth is in fact five semitones.

[xgx]

Well done Theo! ...that explains everything

[george garside]

 

[Howard Jones]

The OP was demonstrably wrong - this clearly hasn't ended the debate.

Squeezy is right in that the word has come to have an accepted and understood meaning, which seems to have escaped from here (if this is where it originated) and now crops up elsewhere.  Words mean what people understand them to mean.  On the other hand, I don't think it's unreasonable to question its derivation and origin.  There is a good reason why a barnacle goose is so called, even if that reason has been shown to be wrong. 

It isn't clear where "quint box" came from, although I have found a possible derivation: in Middle English “Queint,” as a noun, literally means “a clever or curious device or ornament” or or an “elegant, pleasing thing” (Chaucer's use of it to mean something quite different may be a play on words).  Perhaps the melodeon has a longer history than we thought.  Or perhaps it's because it can be a queint to play.

[Graham Spencer]

I'm not confused at all. The 2 rows on my 2-rows are a 4th apart. The rest of you can call them what you like. I have no idea what a "quint" is. Incidentally, I use a ball-point pen, not a "biro" and a vacuum cleaner, not a "hoover".......

[squeezy]

Oh ho ho!

Now we're in the realms of my kind of pedantry 

I'm pretty sure that "quient" from middle English went on to become the word we now use as "quaint" - meaning pretty much the same thing.

Whereas "quint" arose in melnet English from the earlier Latin "quints" which means a fifth ... which is the difference between the keys on the main rows of a quint box system (Yes it is ... because going up a fifth is the same as going down a fourth and vice versa - and when you're talking about the cycle of fifths rather than actual notes it doesn't matter)

aaaarrrgh!

[Ranzo]

By the time I saw Ranzo's post mentioning the use of Roman numerals for relative chords e.g. "I-V-I" I'd already thought we could use the term "I - IV" or even in standard numerals, call it a "1-4" box.

Ah yes, but which is "I"? I think it is a "I - V" box because the secondary key is the V key! 

on a anglo concertina is the row nearest the hand considered to be the "secondary" one??

Yes, I think so. Unless you are in the world of Irish "traditional" (i.e. modern!) music, where they take an instrument in the keys of C and G and play in D on it  then yeah, you're oriented towards the row furthest from the body.

[Ranzo]

The bass is set up for playing in G, not playing in D.

The bass has G-C-D chords for playing in G and D-G-A chords for playing in D.  In what way is it "set up" for playing in G? 

I'm not disagreeing with you, but can you please explain this comment for the benefit of someone who has little music theory? (and what I think I understand is probably wrong!)

Sure! You do have I, IV and V for both keys, but in G you also have II, III and VI, whereas in D you only have II and VI. Bmin is useful in G as a chord, but the bass note is hugely useful, as it open up enormous possibilities for bass runs which you just don't have in D.

In G, the longest bass run that you can do is 6 notes on the bass end. In D it is only 3 notes.

I would also add that there is a logic to having the IV chord of your inner row's key on both push and pull. This is a special privilege given to that key. Although the IV chord for the outer row's key is present, it is only on the push and not very useful unless you play across the rows.

I think of the 1-row instrument (4-stop), which had only I and V chords in the bass. What was missing? The IV chord, which they added on in the 4-bass version. By this logic, the key for which there is a push and pull on IV is the main/home key.

[Ranzo]

Referring to the comments on the home key being on the inside row. This is certainly not the case in Southern USA or Mexico.
Their instruments are always defined by theoutside row.
GCF is a G accordion. ADG is an A accordion. FBbEb is an F accordion.

Rees, I am no expert on the Tejano/Norteño conventions - though I am aware of what you say, that the instruments are called that way. I don't think, however, that that describes the sense of "home row." 3-row is a bit of a hybrid. I have seen evidence that 3-row players consider the middle row to be the "home row." In that sense, they have the middle row being the I and then two common keys to modulate to: V (outer row) and IV (inner row). To call the outer row I would mean modulating to less common keys!

I actually think however that in the "original German" (whatever) concept, the inner row might be considered home. That way, you have I, V, and "V of V". They keys move, through the circle of fifths, towards "home."

Look at the key layouts. A 1-row, say in key of C, was the starting point. The 2-row adds an outer row to that, in this case the key of G—the key that is a fifth away. The 3-row then adds another outer row, another 5th (in harmonic terms) away.
1st incarnation: C - I
Second incarnation: G/C - V/I
third: D/G/C - VofV/V/I