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Author Topic: M Hohner B/E  (Read 22695 times)

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John MacKenzie (Cugiok)

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #120 on: July 17, 2018, 09:26:22 PM »

Thanks Pete. Yes I have one, but never found a way of delivery a small measured amount exactly where it's required. I use scrim, good quality stiffened scrim, that i cut into little oblongs, and use that to glue pallets to arms. I did try punching out 10 mm discs, so it would be like the original linen discs, but it's too fiddly, and my way works just as well. I thought to try using wax, but my wax pot doesn't heat the wax up enough for it to penetrate into the slot on the pallet. For that I think the wax needs to be smoking hot (Just)

SJ
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Pete Dunk

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #121 on: July 18, 2018, 10:02:15 PM »

I use a small egg poaching pan to melt wax, there is no thermostatic control, it's wild and woolly and you just have to pull the pan off the heat when everything gets too hot. No science here, just rule of thumb and the devil takes the hindmost!
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Pete Dunk

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #122 on: March 29, 2022, 11:33:47 PM »


After another gap of almost two years this never quite finished project was brought out of storage and back onto the bench over the weekend, this time I hope to finish it off and end up with a fully functioning and very sweet sounding brass reeded box. One of the advantages of being an hobby fettler is that you are allowed to shelve something that is giving you grief until you are good and ready to have another crack at it and this one tried my patience well and truly.

Having carefully re-covered all of the pallets in Charlie Marshall's finest Persian leather/felt facing material the treble end wouldn't seal properly and leaked quite badly. The spring pressure on the treble keys is quite light, the springs aren't easily accessible without removing the keys and the thin axle rod is pretty firmly rusted in so I didn't feel inclined to tamper with it. In the end I left it alone for several weeks to see if the pallets bedded in under light pressure over a period of time, to no avail, so it was put aside again until now.

There is definitely a noticeable improvement in compression, sufficient to get it to play a few tunes and evaluate the tuning properly (once I'd fixed a bellows corner leak that had developed in the intervening period). So work starts in earnest again to try and resolve the remaining small leaks and a couple of treble reed block problems so that re-valving and tuning can begin.
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Pete Dunk

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #123 on: March 30, 2022, 10:44:16 AM »

I patched up two of the bellows corners yesterday (tip of the cardboard fold on the inside is delaminating and splitting away from the gusset beneath the metal corner) and left them overnight clamped with bulldog clips. A noticeable improvement for a few minutes of playing, until another one blew out. :-[  I would be greatly distressed if the bellows prove to be too far gone and need to be replaced as they are an integral part of the charm of this old box.


I’m going to move on to investigating the suspected problem with the treble blocks whilst the current bellows repair is under compression for the day. Pics to follow in a while so that I can highlight the (suspected) problem and seek advice from the wise heads on here on about the best way to proceed.
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Winston Smith

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #124 on: March 30, 2022, 11:00:47 AM »

Sorry to say it, but there comes a point where old bellows just won't stop breaking!
My first International went that way. In the end, there was more cereal packet in them than original stuff. I eventually found another box with a good set to swap over, and when Peader took the instrument, he also got the original bellows. Hopefully, he managed to salvage the printed coverings somehow in order to maintain some semblance of authenticity?
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Pete Dunk

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #125 on: March 30, 2022, 01:39:44 PM »

Well, the bellows are an ongoing issue and only time will tell if repairing one thing causes the next weakest thing to give way to such an extent that they must be replaced. In the meantime the treble blocks are my next concern, holding a straightedge along the bottom plate, both blocks are very slightly curved with daylight showing in the middle. The leather gasket on the 'fondo' is discoloured in the centre indicating that air has been leaking at this point for a long time. Furthermore one of the blocks has shallow diagonal marks on the bottom as if the sawn wood wasn't planed completely smooth during manufacture, these tiny grooves may add to the leakage with this block. See pictures. The question is, would this kind of internal leak have a significant effect on the airflow through the reeds and across the chambers and if so what is the best approach to achieve a better seal?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 01:41:34 PM by Pete Dunk »
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Winston Smith

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #126 on: March 30, 2022, 02:22:28 PM »

"would this kind of internal leak have a significant effect on the airflow through the reeds and across the chambers"

Not in my opinion, as the airflow will always find the easiest route, which would through be an open pallet, surely? By the way, are they little cracks appearing between the chambers?
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Theo

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #127 on: March 30, 2022, 02:37:24 PM »

The question is, would this kind of internal leak have a significant effect on the airflow through the reeds and across the chambers and if so what is the best approach to achieve a better seal?

Yes it will take away from reed response and volume, and in extreme cases can lead to a ghost note where the adjacent reed gets enough air to start sounding.   The solution is simple - flatten the bass of the reed block, by sanding.  It's something I always check for and rectify when doing an overhaul.  A side effect of flattening the bottom surface of the block is that the toe end of the reed block may become loose and need to be shimmed to bring it back to a snug fit.  Paper or thin card will do the job but if the gap is big enough a slip of wood veneer is firmer.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #128 on: March 30, 2022, 02:39:28 PM »

"would this kind of internal leak have a significant effect on the airflow through the reeds and across the chambers"

Not in my opinion, as the airflow will always find the easiest route, which would through be an open pallet, surely? By the way, are they little cracks appearing between the chambers?

Muddled thinking there Winston.   All the air goes through the pallet hole.  If you want the best reed response then you want all that air to go through the reed as well.  If some can bypass the reed by escaping under the block then the reed will get less air.
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Winston Smith

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #129 on: March 30, 2022, 03:16:33 PM »

"If some can bypass the reed by escaping under the block then the reed will get less air."

Of course, I willingly bow to your superior knowledge and experience (seriously!) but for it to be noticeable, wouldn't that only be if the escape route was as easy as the route through the reed?
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Pete Dunk

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #130 on: March 30, 2022, 04:35:12 PM »

Of course, I willingly bow to your superior knowledge and experience (seriously!) but for it to be noticeable, wouldn't that only be if the escape route was as easy as the route through the reed?


No, and in any case the path under the block is probably easier than through the reed. My question was regarding the significance of the air loss rather than whether or not air would be lost. Think about a pin hole in bellows, that wouldn't matter at all if your hypothesis was correct, I think you already know that any hole in the bellows has a noticeable effect.


Thanks for the reply Theo, blocks have now been sanded flat using 120 grit paper on a sheet of glass to ensure the surface was flat. I have a pack of wooden spills that are a tad thicker than veneer which I use for shims if a block is a bit loose.  (:)  Out with the tuning bench!
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Squeaky Pete

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #131 on: March 30, 2022, 04:48:36 PM »

The saw marks are common on old Hohner reed blocks. I'd always for for straight off an accurate, sharp saw rather than machine planing, a process that doesn't particularly add any quality.
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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #132 on: March 30, 2022, 05:40:17 PM »

"any hole in the bellows has a noticeable effect"

Indeed!
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Pete Dunk

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #133 on: March 30, 2022, 07:33:33 PM »

The saw marks are common on old Hohner reed blocks. I'd always for for straight off an accurate, sharp saw rather than machine planing, a process that doesn't particularly add any quality.


I was just concerned that the saw marks in conjunction with the cupping of reed block sole plates might increase the air leakage problem. I had the good fortune to use a workshop that had a Wadkin planer/thicknesser with an error of +/- 5 thou of an inch across the width of a one foot wide board so I trust good quality planers! Other planers are probably quite poor by comparison!
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Squeezing on the Isle of Oxney, UK
Primo (Serenellini) D/G
Isis D/G
Hohner B/E, G/C, C/F, Bb/Eb G/C/F
Liliputs D/G (G scale), C/F, Bb/Eb, Albrecht Custom D/G (G scale)

John MacKenzie (Cugiok)

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #134 on: March 30, 2022, 07:46:56 PM »

I have a De Walt planer thicknesser, which produces excellent results.

SJ
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: Hohner Club Modell 1. Bb/Eb, de-clubbed : Early Hohner Pressed Wood A/D : 1930's Varnished wood G/C:  Hohner Erika C/F: Bandoneon tuned D/G Pressed wood: Koch F/Bb; G/C Pre Corso

Squeaky Pete

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #135 on: March 30, 2022, 07:52:16 PM »

I'd be bothered by the cupping but not the saw marks.
Planed timber is fine if the knives were sharp.
Anyway the rest of the reed block will hold the shape even if the timber used for the base is banana shaped (within reason). So once you have flatted it, it'll stay flat.
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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #136 on: March 31, 2022, 05:15:11 PM »

Well it took a little while but the 8 bass plates are now re-valved and tuned. Despite expecting to find this box tuned to A=435 it is in fact in modern concert pitch with most notes 10-20 cents flat. I was very slow and careful with the tuning being wary of the brass reeds but so far so good. On with the chord block next. The bellows repair has held up so far and I'm using them to do the tuning. I'm surprised by the tiny amount of difference there is between rough tuning on the blocks and fine tuning in the box, on average only about 1 cent or so.
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Squeezing on the Isle of Oxney, UK
Primo (Serenellini) D/G
Isis D/G
Hohner B/E, G/C, C/F, Bb/Eb G/C/F
Liliputs D/G (G scale), C/F, Bb/Eb, Albrecht Custom D/G (G scale)
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