Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7   Go Down

Author Topic: M Hohner B/E  (Read 10209 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

malcolmbebb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2393
  • In dampest Dorset, on the soggy south coast.
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2014, 07:31:25 AM »

Nick,
Can you skive the edges of these materials to neaten the corners and joins, as you can with leather?
Logged
Dino BPII. My wife seems to have claimed the Liliput.
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire."

Nick Collis Bird

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3594
  • Been squeezing melodeons for over 48 years (badly)
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2014, 12:54:57 PM »

In a word Malcolm. NO. the stuff is very thin anyway. If you try and pare it ,it would be like trying to pare an old bed sheet . Lots of fraying. I have several bits here in Swanage if anyone wants to try some. You could try sanding the edges, that also will allow the glue to take hold because this stuff is particularly glue unfriendly. Us in the Trade hate using it . The Original Rexine was just as bad. (Incidentally, it is the only trademarked " Rexine" name in the OED, Oxford English Dictionary)
Logged
What does a melodeon and a lawsuit have in common?

Everybody’s happy when the case is closed

Pete Dunk

  • Typo Expert
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2834
  • Primo D/G, Hohner B/E,B/C.Liliputs D/G, C/F, Bb/Eb
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2014, 12:05:03 AM »

I'm quite alarmed to hear that buckram repels glues!. I can buy this material in a 1040mm width by the linear metre from the bookbinding suppliers in Scotland for slightly less than £13 inc VAT but then there's a whopping £6.00 p&p charge! So for £19.00 I get what I need with enough left over to do at least nine similar melodeons.

Thankfully I can buy the same material cut to size elsewhere so I won't have loads left over! Two 1mt lengths 50mm wide will do the job but that will cost £5.99 plus p&p, that's around £60.00 per square metre compared to £18 + with lots left over to share! Dilemma.  :o
Logged
Squeezing in the Isle of Oxney, Kent, UK

Malcolm Clapp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 998
  • Loving my Hohner-reeded wet MMM CastaTommy
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2014, 12:29:12 AM »

You could go with leather as an alternative. Not particularly inexpensive, but I've used it on one of my "wide frame" Hohners to good effect. Probably not as hard-wearing as Rexine (or Rexine-substitute) though.
Just a thought....
Logged
Tuner/repairer, now retired, but still playing! Happy to offer advice on repairs etc., and might be persuaded to undertake the odd emergency job for local and longtime  customers.

Steve_freereeder

  • Grumpy old git (sometimes)
  • Content Manager
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5478
  • MAD is inevitable. Keep Calm and Carry On
    • Lizzie Dripping
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2014, 01:22:09 AM »

I'm quite alarmed to hear that buckram repels glues!. I can buy this material in a 1040mm width by the linear metre from the bookbinding suppliers in Scotland for slightly less than £13 inc VAT but then there's a whopping £6.00 p&p charge! So for £19.00 I get what I need with enough left over to do at least nine similar melodeons.
PM sent...
Logged
Steve
Sheffield, UK.
www.lizziedripping.org.uk

tirpous

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 372
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2014, 03:17:38 AM »

Quote
I'm quite alarmed to hear that buckram repels glues!.

Reading back, I think it's the Rexine lookalike that is glue-unfriendly, not buckram.  Maybe Mr. Nick can confirm ?
Logged

Nick Collis Bird

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3594
  • Been squeezing melodeons for over 48 years (badly)
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2014, 07:43:50 AM »

Quote
I'm quite alarmed to hear that buckram repels glues!.

Reading back, I think it's the Rexine lookalike that is glue-unfriendly, not buckram.  Maybe Mr. Nick can confirm ?

Yes it's Rexine. But even modern Buckram on its face side is difficult. It has a waterproof coating.
Rexine is "hairy" on its glue side and takes ages to stick.
Leather, although it takes a little skill to prepare,is perfect and paste should be used not PVA
Logged
What does a melodeon and a lawsuit have in common?

Everybody’s happy when the case is closed

pikey

  • Addicted to squeezeboxes since 1975
  • Thread mod
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3245
  • If it moves, I'll squeeze it....
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2014, 09:29:49 AM »

What kind of paste ? Surely not toothpaste  ;)
Logged
Still squeezing after all these years.
Mostly on hohners , with a couple of Dinos and a smattering of anglos - and now a Jeffries duet

malcolmbebb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2393
  • In dampest Dorset, on the soggy south coast.
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2014, 09:38:44 AM »

So presumably overlapping Buckram is not the preferred method, and therefore butt joints are used?

I have a German concertina of indeterminate age that appears to use buckram, or a similar material, which appears to have been stretched around the bellows end frames in much the same way as leather. I was wondering how they'd achieved that, since I don't think of buckram as stretching easily. 

Nick - do you use corn paste for buckram also?
Logged
Dino BPII. My wife seems to have claimed the Liliput.
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire."

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10526
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2014, 10:31:10 AM »

If you make an overlap join at the back corner it is out of sight and most is hidden by the metal corner pieces.
I've used buckram and Rexine, applied with bookbinders pva and never had a problem with adhesion.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

triskel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3273
  • Learning all the time...
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2014, 01:42:14 PM »

... this box will be restored as and when finances allow to B/E at A=332. ...

That'd be pretty low, your A would be sounding about 14 cents sharp of a "concert pitch" E... (But I guess that's a typo for A=432  ;))

In fact, it can be pretty difficult to establish exactly what pitch an old box like this is meant to be in, because they were tuned to "just intonation" - and that means note values are variable, depending on the key(s) you're dealing with. So if you want to "keep the flavour" of the original tuning, you might need to listen carefully to the tuning and work from what seems to be in tune with itself, only correcting what obviously isn't...  ???
Logged

Nick Collis Bird

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3594
  • Been squeezing melodeons for over 48 years (badly)
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2014, 02:58:55 PM »

OK.  Flour or Rice flour  for paste, when using leather. Soak it well in the stuff and it will remain pliable and mouldable for ages. If you edge pare the leather  and using a strip about an inch wide it's ideal for wrapping around tool handles for a nicer grip.
  For Buckram and other bookcloths we use PVA but we mix it about 50/50 with paste. This gives it a longer "'open time" so you can frab about with the corners before it goes off . We in the workshop call it Jollop!
  For Rexine we use neat PVA  and start sticking down just before it goes off we call this STAB, from the well known saying " sticks like s..t to a blanket"  ;D
Logged
What does a melodeon and a lawsuit have in common?

Everybody’s happy when the case is closed

pikey

  • Addicted to squeezeboxes since 1975
  • Thread mod
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3245
  • If it moves, I'll squeeze it....
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2014, 04:54:40 PM »

Thanks, really useful. Colgate didn't seem to work very well, but it gave a nice odour to the box..... ;)
Logged
Still squeezing after all these years.
Mostly on hohners , with a couple of Dinos and a smattering of anglos - and now a Jeffries duet

forrest

  • Other Places::
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 987
  • digits still functioning
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2014, 05:06:02 PM »

In fact, it can be pretty difficult to establish exactly what pitch an old box like this is meant to be in, because they were tuned to "just intonation" - and that means note values are variable, depending on the key(s) you're dealing with. So if you want to "keep the flavour" of the original tuning, you might need to listen carefully to the tuning and work from what seems to be in tune with itself, only correcting what obviously isn't...  ???

Paul G. has mentioned the value of recording the tuning settings of vintage instruments (that appear to be original, and not re-tuned), to at least get an archival snapshot of the manner temperaments of older instruments were configured. I think that's a valuable excercise, as many of the old tunings are quite lovely. Then they could be retuned and duplicated at modern pitch, if desired. Many folks have a Dirks' tuning program, and the "Record and Report" feature makes quick work of cataloging the original tuning.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 05:07:41 PM by forrest »
Logged

pikey

  • Addicted to squeezeboxes since 1975
  • Thread mod
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3245
  • If it moves, I'll squeeze it....
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2014, 05:26:42 PM »

Great idea.
Logged
Still squeezing after all these years.
Mostly on hohners , with a couple of Dinos and a smattering of anglos - and now a Jeffries duet

triskel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3273
  • Learning all the time...
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2014, 05:41:53 PM »

OK.  Flour or Rice flour  for paste, when using leather. Soak it well in the stuff and it will remain pliable and mouldable for ages.

Which is why it was commonly used in making (leather) concertina bellows...

Oh, and probably because they were originally made by bookbinders too!  ;)
Logged

Nick Collis Bird

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3594
  • Been squeezing melodeons for over 48 years (badly)
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2014, 06:12:22 PM »

OK.  Flour or Rice flour  for paste, when using leather. Soak it well in the stuff and it will remain pliable and mouldable for ages.

Which is why it was commonly used in making (leather) concertina bellows...

Oh, and probably because they were originally made by bookbinders too!  ;)

Ho Ho, yes and no Stephen.
Apart from me I don't know any famous Bookbinders. Apart from Roger Payne 1739 to 1797 ( well worth looking up)
The name that springs to mind is Sir Charles Wheatstone. He was an amazing pioneer in electricity,
But for some unknown reason invented, with others the Concertina  :o. Again he's well worth looking up. ;D
Logged
What does a melodeon and a lawsuit have in common?

Everybody’s happy when the case is closed

forrest

  • Other Places::
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 987
  • digits still functioning
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2014, 07:59:38 PM »

 I am not familiar with "Rexine", but have deduced it's a modern alternative to buckram. Just a cautionary note here.....back when Richard Morse introduced his concertinas, I ordered one, a Trillium C/G anglo #32. The bellows were covered with a synthetic material that was used in the bookbinding profession. The material was not bad looking, and quite flexible...but...after a few months of playing, the product showed cracks and other deterioration from repeated flexing. When I brought the matter to the attention of the Buttonbox, they had me return the instrument, and to their credit, returned it after some weeks with new leather covered bellows. Not sure what the tradename of the synthetic was, but it was a 'bust' as bellows covering. AFAIK, they abandoned the use of that product.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 08:01:49 PM by forrest »
Logged

triskel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3273
  • Learning all the time...
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2014, 10:37:23 PM »

OK.  Flour or Rice flour  for paste, when using leather. Soak it well in the stuff and it will remain pliable and mouldable for ages.

Which is why it was commonly used in making (leather) concertina bellows...

Oh, and probably because they were originally made by bookbinders too!  ;)

Ho Ho, yes and no Stephen.

Nick,

I think you may have misunderstood me, but 19th century concertina bellows (especially the earliest ones, which have folded-over "bookbinder corners") often involved the work of bookbinders - indeed, I found (from census records) that the most famous bellows maker of them all, "Mrs. Jeffries," had worked as a bookbinder before her marriage. The materials and techniques are, after all, the same, whilst even when the bellows were made by the concertina maker, they would always be sent out to a bookbinder if gold-tooling was required.

Visit a 19th century bindery and it is likely the only two bookbinding adhesives you would see in use would be animal glue and a paste made from bread flour.

Binders managed very well for many centuries using these two adhesives
, and so too did concertina bellows makers.
Logged

triskel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3273
  • Learning all the time...
Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2014, 10:46:12 PM »

I am not familiar with "Rexine", but have deduced it's a modern alternative to buckram. Just a cautionary note here.....back when Richard Morse introduced his concertinas, I ordered one, a Trillium C/G anglo #32. The bellows were covered with a synthetic material that was used in the bookbinding profession. The material was not bad looking, and quite flexible...but...after a few months of playing, the product showed cracks and other deterioration from repeated flexing. ... AFAIK, they abandoned the use of that product.

Maybe 40 years ago, Steve Dickinson (C. Wheatstone & Co.) tried using Rexine for a while to make less-expensive concertina bellows (in fact I've a set of his Rexine "butterfly bellows" on the concertina tuning-bellows that his brother Geoff made for me), but found it not successful.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.