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Author Topic: M Hohner B/E  (Read 10208 times)

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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2014, 10:51:41 PM »

OK.  Flour or Rice flour  for paste, when using leather. Soak it well in the stuff and it will remain pliable and mouldable for ages.

Which is why it was commonly used in making (leather) concertina bellows...

Oh, and probably because they were originally made by bookbinders too!  ;)

Ho Ho, yes and no Stephen.

Nick,

I think you may have misunderstood me, but 19th century concertina bellows (especially the earliest ones, which have folded-over "bookbinder corners") often involved the work of bookbinders - indeed, I found (from census records) that the most famous bellows maker of them all, "Mrs. Jeffries," had worked as a bookbinder before her marriage. The materials and techniques are, after all, the same, whilst even when the bellows were made by the concertina maker, they would always be sent out to a bookbinder if gold-tooling was required.

Visit a 19th century bindery and it is likely the only two bookbinding adhesives you would see in use would be animal glue and a paste made from bread flour.

Binders managed very well for many centuries using these two adhesives
, and so too did concertina bellows makers.

I stand corrected Sir. Of course you are right
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2014, 11:14:54 PM »

Interesting thread this. Yes Triskel is right, starch  flour. Just leave a saucepan which has  had mashed spud in it over night and observe the work you have to do in the morning.
 Sorry for the pile of quotes I'm not that computer literate. BUT. I have two chairs in the shop for students/clients to use  while waiting to be served., or rewriting their dissertation at the last minute .
One is covered in Rexine the other is the replacement material. We have  had to  recover the new chair material  two times because it's worn out. The real Rexine has seen so many student bums over the last thirty years and it's still going. That must say something.
   While I'm at it , don't buy anything off eBay after an alcohol session... Have just bought a Concertina thinking it was an Anglo......no. It's, yes ? An English. I'll have a try. :-\
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Pete Dunk

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2014, 12:08:33 AM »

English concertina is my weapon of choice Nick so you know where to come if you have any questions or need a tutor book!

The black buckram will be bought now that I have a co-conspirator. The box will be tuned B/E A=440 although I'm sorely tempted to make it Eb/Bb.

... this box will be restored as and when finances allow to B/E at A=332. ...

That'd be pretty low, your A would be sounding about 14 cents sharp of a "concert pitch" E... (But I guess that's a typo for A=432  ;))

In fact, it can be pretty difficult to establish exactly what pitch an old box like this is meant to be in, because they were tuned to "just intonation" - and that means note values are variable, depending on the key(s) you're dealing with. So if you want to "keep the flavour" of the original tuning, you might need to listen carefully to the tuning and work from what seems to be in tune with itself, only correcting what obviously isn't...  ???

I did indeed mean A=432 not 332. Your point regarding 'just intonation' is a good one and something I hadn't considered but it does perhaps explain why some notes are wildly out of tune when the majority are only very slightly flat compared to modern concert pitch B/E tuning and certainly not in keeping with originally being tuned to A=432.
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2014, 12:29:31 AM »

Pete, Tallship, I know this is thread drift but do you have a 'Tina English instruction book for sale?
Would have sent PM  but couldn't find one :'(
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Ollie

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2014, 01:19:46 AM »

English concertina is my weapon of choice Nick so you know where to come if you have any questions or need a tutor book!

The black buckram will be bought now that I have a co-conspirator. The box will be tuned B/E A=440 although I'm sorely tempted to make it Eb/Bb.

Please don't. It's not difficult to come across a Bb/Eb if you really want one - they are becoming more common. B/E is a gorgeously bright tuning, and quite rare, and it would be such a shame to change this box from its original tuning.
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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2014, 03:01:36 AM »

Ebay sites on the continent have a lot of Bb/Eb boxes in club and standard two-row layouts. It was more widely distributed there, it seems.

Pete Dunk

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2014, 10:21:08 AM »

do you have a 'Tina English instruction book for sale?

I was going to PM a reply but other folk may be interested. Here's a freebie in my Dropbox. Here's the Sally Army Tutor too!
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malcolmbebb

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2014, 11:03:23 AM »

Nick will look lovely in one of those bonnets they used wear.  >:E How many 'tinas now, Nick?
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2014, 11:20:50 AM »

 ;D ;D ;D
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malcolmbebb

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2014, 11:32:29 AM »

I've seen a couple of similar boxes in pressed wood style with red bellows. Somebody has a very nice restored one on ebay.de at present, and there's another needing some work.

I'm very tempted... trying to keep MAD under control at present, but I imagine I will end up with one eventually  ::) ::) But the red looks very bright for leather.

I've been wondering what the material is, hence in part the interest in this thread, and how the restored one came up so bright.
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Theo

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2014, 11:41:10 AM »

Here is a later Hohner with wide bellows frames that I re-covered in genuine Rexine a few months back.

Thanks to Nick CB for putting me on to the supplier.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2014, 11:47:21 AM »

Stop it Theo, I'm trying not to buy one!

Nice job, though.
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Pete Dunk

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2014, 12:20:58 PM »

Here is a later Hohner with wide bellows frames that I re-covered in genuine Rexine a few months back.

Did you use the Rexine as bellows tape too or did you get very lucky with the colour match?
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triskel

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2014, 12:18:36 AM »

Ebay sites on the continent have a lot of Bb/Eb boxes in club and standard two-row layouts. It was more widely distributed there, it seems.

In central Europe they'd have used them a lot to play with brass players, so they could play in the flat keys.

This would not have been so common in the British Isles, but if they did they would more-likely have used an English Chromatic box in G/G# (giving the keys of Bb, Eb and F with the D, G and A cross-fingerings, and Ab on the straight row)
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Theo

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2014, 08:35:02 AM »


Did you use the Rexine as bellows tape too or did you get very lucky with the colour match?

Used the same Rexine for bellows tape.  Its the only way to get a colour (and texture) match.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Pete Dunk

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2014, 11:20:59 PM »

Some progress has been made, the wide bellows frames have had all of the hardware removed and are now stripped back to bare (ugly, soft)wood and the tape over the bellows folds is all gone. I took a few pics today but can't upload them until tomorrow at the earliest.

The buckram has arrived, nice material! Worth noting is the fact that the roll is something like 1040mm wide and it is sold by the metre so I bought a metre, what arrived today was two pieces of 1040 x 510mm with a woven edge that needs to be trimmed off and thrown away (this still leaves 510mm of usable material to be fair). Had I have been a bookbinder seeking to rebind an ancient tome that was 1000mm wide when opened and 550mm deep I think I might well be uttering a high pitched screech by now!!
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2014, 07:09:38 AM »

Some progress has been made, the wide bellows frames have had all of the hardware removed and are now stripped back to bare (ugly, soft)wood and the tape over the bellows folds is all gone. I took a few pics today but can't upload them until tomorrow at the earliest.

The buckram has arrived, nice material! Worth noting is the fact that the roll is something like 1040mm wide and it is sold by the metre so I bought a metre, what arrived today was two pieces of 1040 x 510mm with a woven edge that needs to be trimmed off and thrown away (this still leaves 510mm of usable material to be fair). Had I have been a bookbinder seeking to rebind an ancient tome that was 1000mm wide when opened and 550mm deep I think I might well be uttering a high pitched screech by now!!

Pete, slightly off the thread, but I have been there done that etc.  We get away with it by making a half binding eg the spine and some of the side in one colour and and the sides and corners can be added as well.
Anyway that's not the purpose of this post.
The woven edge is called the Selvage and is extra to the width. The Important thing  to know is that all woven cloths have a grain direction, warp and weft etc. The grain on Buckram  runs up the width so it folds easier across the width than it does up the length
If you are cutting strips, say for bellows tape then always cut across the length, you'll find it much easier to work with.
 All the above sounds complex, it isn't. There's a good explanation of grain direction on our website.
Just type Collis Bird into Google and go from there. (:)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 07:57:52 AM by Nick Collis Bird »
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Theo

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2014, 08:39:30 AM »

Some suppliers supply Buckram full width, any length cut from a roll.  Others seem to have it pre-cut on 500mm lengths.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Pete Dunk

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2014, 01:07:47 PM »

The woven edge is called the Selvage and is extra to the width. The Important thing  to know is that all woven cloths have a grain direction, warp and weft etc. The grain on Buckram  runs up the width so it folds easier across the width than it does up the length
If you are cutting strips, say for bellows tape then always cut across the length, you'll find it much easier to work with.
 All the above sounds complex, it isn't. There's a good explanation of grain direction on our website.
Just type Collis Bird into Google and go from there. (:)

Thanks for the info Nick! just to make sure I have this right I've attached a diagram. I intend to cut two pieces of buckram 48mm wide down the full length of the piece, these will rebind the two end frames. If I then cut 28 x 20mm wide strips across the remaining piece each of these pieces will be exactly the right lenghth (to the mm!) to make one long side and one short side of bellows tape for the 14 folds with nothing but the bit of selvage left over!
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Theo

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Re: M Hohner B/E
« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2014, 01:12:53 PM »

I've used buckram for bellows, and advise that you cut all the strips in the same direction (see Nick's earlier comment about grain).  If you cut the edging strips in a different direction, across the grain, then they will fold less easily, and the texture will appear different between the end frames and the folds.

Don't worry too much about getting the length exactly right because the material can stretch very slightly with the moisture from the glue and with handling.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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