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Author Topic: Those who also play the anglo  (Read 2803 times)

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derekc

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Those who also play the anglo
« on: February 23, 2014, 11:56:09 AM »

Hi - a question please for those who play both the anglo concertina and D/G melodeon.

I have, on and off, played the D/G melodeon over several years. I recently started playing the anglo, which I enjoy very much and am starting to get to grips with it.

However, for me there is an apparent conflict between a D/G melodeon and an anglo (any key) concertina. To play the anglo in the harmonic style, you largely play (ignoring playing across the rows for the time being) the melody on what would be the equivalent squeaky end of a D/G.   From previous squeaky end threads, it appears that in the main, because it is squeaky, D/G melodeon players tend to play at the sweet spot lower octave end.

So what to do if you play both an anglo and a D/G melodeon?

   - Learn and play tunes so the the fingering is largely the same on both the Anglo and melodeon - however, for D/G = squeaky end.
   - same - but buy a G/C or D/G LLM melodeon
   - Play the same tune on each, but transpose it to the lower end octave on the melodeon - I am so deeply envious if you can easily do this.
   - Just have a separate repertoire for each instrument as some tunes are bettered suited to one or other instrument.

I would like to hear your thoughts please. I am tending to find new tunes are being learnt on both, which in my case = the squeaky end. Which is pushing me towards a G/C melodeon, for me even a LLM D/G does not do squeaky end well - sorry. My current thoughts are a G/D (to cover the key of D) anglo and a G/C melodeon would be an ideal combination - but totally workshop unfriendly!

Many thanks.
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IanD

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Re: Those who also play the anglo
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2014, 12:13:55 PM »

Hi - a question please for those who play both the anglo concertina and D/G melodeon.

I have, on and off, played the D/G melodeon over several years. I recently started playing the anglo, which I enjoy very much and am starting to get to grips with it.

However, for me there is an apparent conflict between a D/G melodeon and an anglo (any key) concertina. To play the anglo in the harmonic style, you largely play (ignoring playing across the rows for the time being) the melody on what would be the equivalent squeaky end of a D/G.   From previous squeaky end threads, it appears that in the main, because it is squeaky, D/G melodeon players tend to play at the sweet spot lower octave end.

So what to do if you play both an anglo and a D/G melodeon?

   - Learn and play tunes so the the fingering is largely the same on both the Anglo and melodeon - however, for D/G = squeaky end.
   - same - but buy a G/C or D/G LLM melodeon
   - Play the same tune on each, but transpose it to the lower end octave on the melodeon - I am so deeply envious if you can easily do this.
   - Just have a separate repertoire for each instrument as some tunes are bettered suited to one or other instrument.

I would like to hear your thoughts please. I am tending to find new tunes are being learnt on both, which in my case = the squeaky end. Which is pushing me towards a G/C melodeon, for me even a LLM D/G does not do squeaky end well - sorry. My current thoughts are a G/D (to cover the key of D) anglo and a G/C melodeon would be an ideal combination - but totally workshop unfriendly!

Many thanks.

A G/D concertina has much less of the "squeaky top-end" problem than a C/G does, though the rows are obviously the other way around (D higher) to a D/G melodeon (G higher) so you can't always play the melody in the same range and the fingering is different. If you have both you can play in both keys on both instruments but you need to learn two different sets of fingering -- however I always recommend learning to play in both "los" and "high" octaves on the melodeon anyway, and once you do this you've got the concertina largely covered (apart from different cross-rowing and melodies which stray onto the left hand).
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Andrew Wigglesworth

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Re: Those who also play the anglo
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2014, 12:47:11 PM »

I realised the other day that a friends concertina is in fact what we'd describe as a G/D rather than a D/G. It should have been obvious really since he regulary goes onto forays in the lower ends of the G range. It only took me twenty odd years and hundreds of sessions and gigs to notice  ::)

I'd strongly endorse what Ian says about learning tunes in the different "positions" on a melodeon. It was something that I was encouraged to do early on, it's not hard, it just takes time and practice until you can do the shifts without thinking.

In sessions and band and work I'll regulary move up and down the octaves (both to bring a new "voice" to the ensemble or to play in octaves) during tunes and  though the "position" thing is not something I've personally had to contend with on a concertina,  it is somewhat similar to what often happens between a two row and a one row melodeon where you often want to shift up on a one row.

B/C players must look at some discussions with a wry smile. At least most of our scales on D/G boxes and one rows are basically related. No, I'm not having a go at anyone, but practice and getting it "under the fingers" is the thing.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 12:50:19 PM by Andrew Wigglesworth »
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malcolmbebb

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Re: Those who also play the anglo
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2014, 01:13:22 PM »

Just on the G row, and just for simple tunes, I play the melody with my left hand on a C/G Anglo and the same melody (not at the same time!) with my right hand on a D/G melodeon.

I find it takes very little effort to move across, even though it's different fingers on different hands. It means I stay in the same octave, not being a big lover of the dog-scaring notes, so the tune sounds broadly the same. I often move between the two if I'm having trouble getting a sequence of notes into my fingers, it often helps, although I can't explain why.

It works the same for the D row and a G/D concertina, although I spend a lot less time in D.
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pikey

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Re: Those who also play the anglo
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2014, 03:21:41 PM »

Learn to play in octaves on the Anglo ie melody on the left hand and the right hand. If you listen to the recordings of Scan Tester he plays in octaves 90 percent of the time.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Those who also play the anglo
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2014, 03:59:13 PM »

However, for me there is an apparent conflict between a D/G melodeon and an anglo (any key) concertina. To play the anglo in the harmonic style, you largely play (ignoring playing across the rows for the time being) the melody on what would be the equivalent squeaky end of a D/G. 
The anglo concertina and the melodeon are really quite different animals; it's best not to think of the anglo as a 'melodeon split in half'. For playing C/G anglo in the harmonic style, I follow the methodology so successfully adopted by Brian Peters: as far as possible play the melody on the RH end and the accompaniment/chords on the LH end. When playing in the key of G you can avoid the squeakiness by NOT ignoring playing across the rows. It's worth getting into the habit of doing this at a very early stage.

When playing in the key of G, try to make use of both C-row and G-row on the RH side (the small cluster of 6 RH buttons - C6, C7, C8 on the C-row* and G6, G7, G8 on the G-row*) by cross-row playing. Additionally, on a 30-key anglo the LH top row button T4* pull G, and the LH C-row button C5 pull A give you the first two notes of the G-scale. Using this combination you (a) avoid considerable squeakiness and (b) free up all or most the remaining fingers on the left hand for more of the time to add chords/accompaniment.

It really is worth practising the scale of G like this (see purple buttons on the diagram below) and then trying to incorporate it into tunes.
I don't want to discuss anglo technique in too much detail on a melodeon forum. PM me if you want more help.

* On a 30-key C/G anglo, I use the numbering system as follows:
                                   LH side   /   RH side                     
 Third (top) Row T1 T2 T3 T4 T5  /  T6 T7 T8 T9 T10
              C-row C1C2 C3 C4 C5  /  C6 C7 C8 C9 C10
            G-row G1 G2 G3 G4 G5  /  G6 G7 G8 G9 G10

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rees

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Re: Those who also play the anglo
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2014, 04:01:43 PM »

The book "The Irish Concertina" by Mick Bramich covers this subject very well.
It really opens up the C/G concertina and don't worry, it's perfectly ok to play English or any other tunes in this style, not just Irish.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Those who also play the anglo
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2014, 04:07:13 PM »

...My current thoughts are a G/D anglo (to cover the key of D) ...
Just a quick further response:
It is perfectly possible to play quite fluently in the key of D on a C/G anglo. Irish musicians do it all the time, although mostly melody only. It takes a bit more practice and pre-planning of fingering to add chords but it is not too hard. You just don't have quite as many options for chords as you do in the keys of G or C but they are there nevertheless.

A G/D anglo is another option of course, but they are rarer beasts (and good quality ones tend to be very expensive).
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malcolmbebb

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Re: Those who also play the anglo
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2014, 04:52:07 PM »

Derek,
You have already mentioned playing on an Anglo, but your post suggests you don't own one? Or are thinking of changing?

The classic question is - what do you want to do or play? If you are serious, then you will be looking at a 30 button box, either tuning, which as you may know are (in general - *puts on helmet*) more expensive than melodeons.

The G/D anglo is (nominally) the equivalent of the D/G melodeon but if you go that route you might want to consider one or the other, not both. I find learning on a D/G melodeon messes me up for the G/D concertina (unless you are very able, or have a lot of time to spend!).
You can decide to play some tunes on one, and some only on t'other but you will need a lot more discipline than me...

I paid the same for a new G/D as a C/G would have cost, but used G/Ds are rarer, as already stated. My C/G is a 20 button so lacks the accidentals etc, and even at my level I do miss them from time to time.
Tuition materials and workshops mainly support the far more common C/G, but once you're experienced this will become less of an issue.

The advice to treat them as separate instruments, and to consider avoiding simple "along the row" keying seems at first to be making unnecessarily hard work for yourself, but as I'm becoming more experienced I am starting to see the merit in it.

Another obvious question - do you know of concertina.net? Much less traffic than here, although many of the same people, and I've had a lot of help there.
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derekc

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Re: Those who also play the anglo
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2014, 05:12:46 PM »

thanks for the responses so far - this has really helped me to straighten my thinking out. It is not the squeakiness of the anglo that is the concern, more the best strategy to adopt when moving between the two instruments - which has been covered above. Either, learn to play a tune in both octaves on the melodeon or, treat them as two distinct instruments. For me, I feel the latter being the more favourable approach.

Steve - thanks for that response -  I might have been almost there as I do play some tunes like this - but, not through thinking of it in that way - so to see it written out as such was a light bulb moment for me and has further opened up the possibilities of the C/G tuning.   

Malcolm - yes I own a 30 key C/G Wheatstone Mayfair - not top of the range, but I like it and it was made the same year as me :-) And, thanks - yes I am on Concertina Net - but thought my issue was more aligned to moving between the melodeon and anglo, than a specific anglo question. I know from previous threads there are quite a few on this forum who also play the anglo.
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Howard Jones

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Re: Those who also play the anglo
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2014, 07:57:11 PM »

The anglo and melodeon are less similar than you are suggesting.  Certainly playing one gives you a head start when learning the other, but the similarities up and down the rows are less significant than the differences when playing across them - and (with respect) to disregard those is to misunderstand both instruments.  The fingering patterns you use to play phrases and chords are very different as soon as you start to play across the rows.

In my head I don't feel any correspondence between the two when I'm playing - concertina is concertina and melodeon is melodeon, and they have their own ways of being played.  I don't have any problem playing a tune with different fingering on different instruments.  This includes not only tunes I've learned but when I'm busking tunes in a session.  Of the options you suggested in your original post, none apply to me - I learn to play different fingerings on each instrument.  Your post implies that you think this is more difficult - I think the opposite would be the case if you're trying to shoe-horn the fingering from one instrument onto another, as you'd forever be trying to adjust for the differences.

To show how little correspondence there is, I've recently acquired a G/C which it is natural to play in the upper octave.  You'd think that as an anglo player this would be second nature to me.  It isn't, because I'm looking for melodeon fingering patterns rather than concertina ones.

forrest

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Re: Those who also play the anglo
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2014, 10:26:47 PM »

 I entered the melodeon world after a couple of years on the Anglo. The most obvious similarity is that the scales along the rows of concertina are virtually the same patterns you will find on melodeon. So a melodeon player will discover right away that (some) tunes can be figured out easily. But since the rows are reversed, D/G to G/D, or G/C to C/G, then it becomes plain that new patterns must be learned for cross-rowing.
  Also similar is the bi-sonoric action of the buttons, and the push-pull of the bellows. Big difference for the left hand though, instead of poking out bass & chords, the left hand can now participate in contributing to the melody, and chords can be played using either hand, or both. Again, I consider this as cross training.
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Howard Jones

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Re: Those who also play the anglo
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2014, 10:15:45 AM »

There's a parallel with stringed instruments - playing a scale up and down a single string on a fretted instrument is the same whether it's a guitar or a banjo.  However the intervals between the strings are different (just as the intervals between the rows of squeezebox are), which makes them quite different to play.  Someone who wants to play the same tune on both guitar and banjo will have to work out different ways of playing them for each instrument.

Just because anglo and melodeon are members of the same family and share some characteristics doesn't mean that they are interchangeable, and any attempt to work out a common way of playing anything other than the very simplest tune is likely to result in frustration, if not complete failure.

derekc

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Re: Those who also play the anglo
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2014, 11:14:47 AM »

Thanks Howard - that is a very good analogy.

All the responses have been very useful - the clear message is treat them differently - which I have fully taken on board.

So a big thanks everyone who answered - I feel straightened out  (:)

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