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Author Topic: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand  (Read 35722 times)

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ladydetemps

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Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« on: March 09, 2009, 01:08:09 PM »

Looking up melodeon's online I'm a bit confused what is meant by Voices and Basses and how would having 1, 2 or 3 voice make a difference? What do they do? (and on a side note whats the difference between stepped keyboard and not?)

yours Dazed and Confused
Sarah

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2009, 01:29:16 PM »

This subject seems like a good candidate for an article on the main website, eh moderators?

Voices = banks of reeds. Your concertina has only one set of reeds, therefore one reed per note.

Accordions typically have two, three or four banks of reeds or "voices" mounted on separate reed blocks. (Some have only one, like the Castagnari Lilly, and some monsters may have more than four).

These voices will usually not be tuned to exactly the same pitch, creating some tremolo or vibrato in the sound. This is chiefly what gives accordions a different sound from concertinas. The amount of tremolo or wobble in the sound is controlled by the fine tuning. Lots of tremolo is referred to as "musette" or "wet" tuning. Less tremolo (drier) can be referred to as "swing". No tremolo is referred to as "dry" tuning. There are many other terms for these settings.

The voices can be in different octaves too.

For example, two-voice boxes like the ubiquitous Hohner Pokerwork will usually have both voices in the normal (medium) octave - "clarinet" voices. Referred to as "MM"
Three-voice boxes might have three clarinet voices (MMM) or two plu one "bassoon" voice an octave lower (LMM)
A four-voice box might have one bassoon voice and three clarinets (LMMM) or a high-octave piccolo voice in place of one of the clarinets (LMMH).
And many other permutations.

As for basses... I'll let somebody else enlighten you but they are the buttons on the left-hand cabinet.

Unstepped keyboard are preferred by Irish- and Scottish-style players, and many people in other traditions. Let you slide around more easily.

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2009, 01:48:02 PM »

Thanks for the explanation Steve - helped me big time - as I was trying to explain same thing to a friend recently.
AL
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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2009, 01:50:05 PM »

It only took me the best part of a year lurking here before I started to understand voices and wet and dry tunings and suchlike - that's the most understandable explanation I've seen thus far Steve!

ladydetemps

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2009, 02:14:39 PM »


Unstepped keyboard are preferred by Irish- and Scottish-style players, and many people in other traditions. Let you slide around more easily.
Why would you want to slide/not want to slide?

Thanks for the info :)

george garside

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2009, 02:22:00 PM »

stepped or unstepped keyboard doesn't make a worls f difference for  most music & you get irish players using stepped  & english players using flat.  Personally I cant see any aadvantage whatsoever to a stepped keyboard & much prefer it to be flat so you dont have to go uphill when moving from outside to inside row. But having said that I have for many years played a serenellini salterello 3 voice Dg with stepped keyboard, mainly because I particularly liked the sound (tuning) and indeed still do.  Also I have to admit that it came at a very good price  which more than made up for the stepped keyboard that i prefer least.  IN other words all things including money have to be taken into account when choosing a box.

As to Bass on an 8 bass Dg . these are 2,3 or 4 voice (voices = number of reeds that can be played at same time) bass charts for various treble systems are on this forum.  Bass can be used to drive a rhythm, add a degree of harmony or  a bit of both.  More elaborate bass harmony often involves 'row crossing' on treble end to get bellows going in right direction  for a particlar bass note ( 'cos usually only C bass occurs on press & draw of bellows.

george
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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2009, 11:14:33 AM »

stepped or unstepped keyboard doesn't make a worls f difference for  most music & you get irish players using stepped  & english players using flat.  Personally I cant see any aadvantage whatsoever to a stepped keyboard & much prefer it to be flat so you dont have to go uphill when moving from outside to inside row. But having said that I have for many years played a serenellini salterello 3 voice Dg with stepped keyboard, mainly because I particularly liked the sound (tuning) and indeed still do.  Also I have to admit that it came at a very good price  which more than made up for the stepped keyboard that i prefer least.  IN other words all things including money have to be taken into account when choosing a box.

As to Bass on an 8 bass Dg . these are 2,3 or 4 voice (voices = number of reeds that can be played at same time) bass charts for various treble systems are on this forum.  Bass can be used to drive a rhythm, add a degree of harmony or  a bit of both.  More elaborate bass harmony often involves 'row crossing' on treble end to get bellows going in right direction  for a particlar bass note ( 'cos usually only C bass occurs on press & draw of bellows.

george

The preference for stepped or unstepped keyboards also depends on how you hold your hand/fingers, as well as what you're used to playing.

If the fingers are heavily curved like claws so that the tips come down on the buttons almost vertically then you'll probably prefer a flat keyboard to avoid the "step" that George refers to. If the fingers are much straighter so the fingertips come down flatter than you might not like a flat keyboard, because when the inner row buttons are pressed they sink below the level of the unpressed outer row buttons.

Personally I prefer a keyboard where the step between the rows is small and about the same as the button travel, usually 5mm or so. From this point of view my Dony is more comfortable to play than my Tommy or Oakwood (step is a bit too large) or Preciosa (flat keyboard).

Ian
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george garside

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2009, 11:47:22 AM »

It also depends very much on one strap or two ( I always use 2 straps )  as two strapping enables you to easily rest the thumb very lightly on teh edge of the keyboard more to locate the hand than to locate the keyboaard - this in turn facilitates the U shaped fingers hitting the buttons with the tips.    The U shpe is much harder to achieve ( but not impossible) using only one strap  as by definition some part of the hand/thumb etc has a responsibility for keyboard location.   I can manage after a fashion either style of music on either keybord  but can do bugger all with only one strap.  I once haad a beautiful 96 bass paolo soprani 3 row with  fully stepped keybord (i.e. between each row)  I got rid to a dealer very quickly & have wondered if it was a 'conversion from a 3 row continental - these need the stepped keybord if you are going to use your thumb as is fairly normal practice.


george

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2009, 01:57:53 PM »

I have recently bought a decent pair of straps from Theo for my Scarlatti and found that my playing has improved enormously - I now have a solid platform to work from (as I put it). Somebody (a respected member of this Forum) mentioned to me last night however that I was playing without my thumb trailing the keyboard as George suggests. I seem to be getting the "U" fingers though - do I really need my thumb on the edge or is it optional?
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ladydetemps

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2009, 02:01:29 PM »

Quote
It also depends very much on one strap or two
another thing to think about. ;)
Quote
The preference for stepped or unstepped keyboards also depends on how you hold your hand/fingers, as well as what you're used to playing.

I'm used to playing a concertina. >:D

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2009, 02:04:43 PM »

I have recently bought a decent pair of straps from Theo for my Scarlatti and found that my playing has improved enormously - I now have a solid platform to work from (as I put it). Somebody (a respected member of this Forum) mentioned to me last night however that I was playing without my thumb trailing the keyboard as George suggests. I seem to be getting the "U" fingers though - do I really need my thumb on the edge or is it optional?

Putting your thumb on the edge instead of round the back of the keyboard straightens out the wrist and fingers instead of them being bent backwards, which is the same position that causes RSI from long-term mouse use. It also makes playing right-hand chords and harmonies and moving up and down the keyboard easier.

But it's not essential -- I play with thumb round the back for morris (standing up) for which the tunes tend to be simpler, and thumb on the edge for the band (box braced against right knee) where they tend to be more complex.

Ian
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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2009, 02:18:19 PM »

I play with thumb round the back for morris (standing up) for which the tunes tend to be simpler, and thumb on the edge for the band (box braced against right knee) where they tend to be more complex.

Ian
Me too. As I play with one strap I use the thumb behind when standing (Morris) and tumb on edge when seated (most everything else)

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2009, 02:41:48 PM »

I have recently bought a decent pair of straps from Theo for my Scarlatti and found that my playing has improved enormously - I now have a solid platform to work from (as I put it). Somebody (a respected member of this Forum) mentioned to me last night however that I was playing without my thumb trailing the keyboard as George suggests. I seem to be getting the "U" fingers though - do I really need my thumb on the edge or is it optional?

Having two straps made the world of difference for me. Your agility goes up enormously.

I am trying to have my thumb trailing, but I find it quite uncomfortable to do so. As a long term piano player my hand seems to fall into the position that you would use for piano playing automatically, which means that the thumb falls underneath the keyboard (I have exceptionally big hands, which makes things worse. I can reach an octave and a fifth on the piano with relative ease). I had a similar problem on clarinet, my RH position was all wrong. I've also seen long term clarinet users have the same problem on Piano, interestingly.

It is altogether possible to play well and fast with the thumb underneath the keyboard. I do think that having it trailing would be better in the long run, as said above.
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george garside

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2009, 02:44:24 PM »

Quote
It also depends very much on one strap or two
another thing to think about. ;)
Quote
Hi Sarah
I   recommend two straps for beginners  without exeption  aas having the keyboard where you expect it to be and having the hand free to move around make things a lot easier. Later you may wish to 'revert' to one strap but relativaley few do!  To me playing with one strap and supporting the keybord with hand or bits thereof is rather like a concert pianist tying to push a grand piano accross the stage whilst playing ;)

george
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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2009, 03:03:13 PM »

I don't know how people are able to play standing up with only one strap. I can't control the box at all like that, but then, I can't play with my thumb behind the keyboard either...I don't have very big hands.

I like to play sitting down, with the box resting on my left thigh and braced by my right knee so that it can't move at all, and then only one strap is needed. If I have to stand up then I need two straps. What I really hate is if I am playing for morris or whatever and the left strap slips off my shoulder, at which point if I can't stop playing then either some kind person has to hoik it back for me, or else I end up desperately trying to play with the heel of my hand braced against the edge of the keyboard to support the box as it gradually starts to tilt at an increasingly improbable angle!
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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2009, 03:45:03 PM »

Hi Sarah
I   recommend two straps for beginners  without exeption  aas having the keyboard where you expect it to be and having the hand free to move around make things a lot easier. Later you may wish to 'revert' to one strap but relativaley few do!  To me playing with one strap and supporting the keybord with hand or bits thereof is rather like a concert pianist tying to push a grand piano accross the stage whilst playing ;)

george

I concur. It was you that made me get two straps as it happens George, assuming you are the same George Garside that used to run beginners melodeon workshops and easy sessions at Sidmouth a few years back. I still think that your advice is the best I have so far received for melodeon, that workshop was exceptionally helpful. I still have the notes from it somewhere I think, but goodness knows where.
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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2009, 04:29:21 PM »

hav't been asked to do workshops at Sidmouth since it was reinvented as a much smaller festival but very glad to hear you got something out of it!  For what its worth to any new starters ( or those who so far hav't got the hang of it I will be doing a weeks worth of workshops at Whitby as usual in august. 4 linked beginners and probably an intermediate/advanced on the friday 

george
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ladydetemps

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2009, 04:33:34 PM »


 Hi Sarah
I   recommend two straps for beginners  without exeption  aas having the keyboard where you expect it to be and having the hand free to move around make things a lot easier. Later you may wish to 'revert' to one strap but relativaley few do!  To me playing with one strap and supporting the keybord with hand or bits thereof is rather like a concert pianist tying to push a grand piano accross the stage whilst playing ;)

george
I fear I will probably hold the thing upside down first off. lol!
I'm trying to do a little more research this time...when I bought my concertina I just bought the first thing I got my hands on. Now I realise I should have thought about it more. ;)


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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2009, 05:04:05 PM »

Here's what it looks like upsidedown Sarah


http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=NL&hl=nl&v=aX-8KJVPWps

Being an Essex Girl. You should manage that easy-peasy

Nice tune for you.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 05:06:19 PM by Fidjit »
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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2009, 05:05:50 PM »

It also depends very much on one strap or two
another thing to think about. ;)
Quote
Hi Sarah
I   recommend two straps for beginners  without exeption  aas having the keyboard where you expect it to be and having the hand free to move around make things a lot easier. Later you may wish to 'revert' to one strap but relativaley few do!  To me playing with one strap and supporting the keybord with hand or bits thereof is rather like a concert pianist tying to push a grand piano accross the stage whilst playing ;)

george

If you're playing outdoors for morris -- in other words, loudly -- using one strap puts the box in a very different position to two straps, much lower down and further to the left, assuming you use a long enough strap which is often not the case.

This means that you use different (and much stronger) arm muscles to open and close the bellows (biceps/triceps) instead of chest muscles, because you're pulling the bass end towards you not across your front -- you're basically squeezing the box between your two arms.

I would agree that it can be harder for beginners to stop the box moving around, especially if the strap hangers aren't in the right place to allow this way of playing to work; they're often too far back so the box tends to pivot forwards when you push, the solution is to move them forwards.

The result is that you can play for longer and harder without getting tired muscles, and also get more "punch" into the sound than playing with two straps. If the straps are positioned correctly the right-hand end is held firmly between the opposing forces of the bellows, strap, and right hand against the keyboard, and can be thrown about with impunity -- anyone who's seen/heard me play for Smiffs will have a good idea how well this can work, and a lot of highly-rated morris box players also use one strap for the same reasons.

Of course if you don't want to play like this for these reasons then by all means use two straps -- but there are significant advantages in using only one :-)

Ian
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 05:09:51 PM by IanD »
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