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Author Topic: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand  (Read 35726 times)

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Owen Woods

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2009, 06:12:07 PM »

hav't been asked to do workshops at Sidmouth since it was reinvented as a much smaller festival but very glad to hear you got something out of it!  For what its worth to any new starters ( or those who so far hav't got the hang of it I will be doing a weeks worth of workshops at Whitby as usual in august. 4 linked beginners and probably an intermediate/advanced on the friday 

george

Yeah, this was 5? 6? years ago? Something like that. I must have been about 14 then. Grief.

Actually the festival has suffered by not having a beginners session, as all or most of the sessions now are 'standard' non=timetabled things, which can be very daunting to a beginner.

Anyway, sorry to drag off topic.
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george garside

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2009, 06:27:16 PM »

It also depends very much on one strap or two
another thing to think about. ;)
Quote
Hi Sarah
I   recommend two straps for beginners  without exeption  aas having the keyboard where you expect it to be and having the hand free to move around make things a lot easier. Later you may wish to 'revert' to one strap but relativaley few do!  To me playing with one strap and supporting the keybord with hand or bits thereof is rather like a concert pianist tying to push a grand piano accross the stage whilst playing ;)

george

If you're playing outdoors for morris -- in other words, loudly -- using one strap puts the box in a very different position to two straps, much lower down and further to the left, assuming you use a long enough strap which is often not the case.

This means that you use different (and much stronger) arm muscles to open and close the bellows (biceps/triceps) instead of chest muscles, because you're pulling the bass end towards you not across your front -- you're basically squeezing the box between your two arms.

I would agree that it can be harder for beginners to stop the box moving around, especially if the strap hangers aren't in the right place to allow this way of playing to work; they're often too far back so the box tends to pivot forwards when you push, the solution is to move them forwards.

The result is that you can play for longer and harder without getting tired muscles, and also get more "punch" into the sound than playing with two straps. If the straps are positioned correctly the right-hand end is held firmly between the opposing forces of the bellows, strap, and right hand against the keyboard, and can be thrown about with impunity -- anyone who's seen/heard me play for Smiffs will have a good idea how well this can work, and a lot of highly-rated morris box players also use one strap for the same reasons.

Of course if you don't want to play like this for these reasons then by all means use two straps -- but there are significant advantages in using only one :-)

Ian

hi ian

in t;he interests of good & honest debate  I disagree with most of what you have said - sorry.  Waving the bellows around  like sail does nothing for the finesse  of the music  = & yes I have over the years played for a number of morris sides.  Bicepts Bicepts   or indeed chest should be substituted by elbow & wrist movement.  Pulling the thing like a yard of trip gives little if any increase in volume but greatly adds to the clumsiness of the proceedings.  Playing one   with the 'droops' cant do tha anatomy any good at all.   

I think the long one strap camae in because of the Mally strap - strange that Mally now recommendd two straps for morris.

george ( ducking swiftly) ;)
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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2009, 08:19:20 AM »

<snip.The result is that you can play for longer and harder without getting tired muscles, and also get more "punch" into the sound than playing with two straps. If the straps are positioned correctly the right-hand end is held firmly between the opposing forces of the bellows, strap, and right hand against the keyboard, and can be thrown about with impunity </snip>
Ian

I, depressingly  (:), find myself wholely aligned with Ian's point of view. I went through a phase late last year when I had a touch of tendonitis when I nearly converted to two straps but have gone back to the "one true way". I find that having the box strapped to my chest constricted myabilty to add punch to a tune and also seems to prevent my right hand from getting where it needed to be despite not having the thumb wrapped round the keyboard (Yes I have tried getting the keyboard under my chin etc etc).

So I now have more straps than I care to count having bought some during my two strap phase that are now surplus to requirements.

My little pic on the left shows how I hold it when standing.

Skipy

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2009, 08:46:39 AM »

To me playing with one strap and supporting the keyboard with hand or bits thereof is rather like a concert pianist trying to push a grand piano across the stage whilst playing ;)

george

I like that........... Can't you just picture it?............ Morecambe & Wise?  ;D

Skipy
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ladydetemps

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2009, 09:01:43 AM »

Quote
in t;he interests of good & honest debate  I disagree with most of what you have said - sorry.  Waving the bellows around  like sail does nothing for the finesse  of the music  = & yes I have over the years played for a number of morris sides.  Bicepts Bicepts   or indeed chest should be substituted by elbow & wrist movement.  Pulling the thing like a yard of trip gives little if any increase in volume but greatly adds to the clumsiness of the proceedings.  Playing one   with the 'droops' cant do tha anatomy any good at all.  

*cough* now comes the delicate question....Lets just say being a lady will a erm..chest pose me problems when playing or effect number of straps recommended? How high up/low down should the melodeon rest?

ladydetemps

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2009, 09:05:28 AM »

Here's what it looks like upsidedown Sarah


http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=NL&hl=nl&v=aX-8KJVPWps

Being an Essex Girl. You should manage that easy-peasy

Nice tune for you.
That's in my youtube faves list ;)

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2009, 09:44:29 AM »

*cough* now comes the delicate question....Lets just say being a lady will a erm..chest pose me problems when playing or effect number of straps recommended? How high up/low down should the melodeon rest?


You'll see Jeanie Harris and Katie Howson at M&M ask them. :||: Ouch!
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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2009, 10:11:53 AM »


hi ian

in t;he interests of good & honest debate  I disagree with most of what you have said - sorry.  Waving the bellows around  like sail does nothing for the finesse  of the music  = & yes I have over the years played for a number of morris sides.  Bicepts Bicepts   or indeed chest should be substituted by elbow & wrist movement.  Pulling the thing like a yard of trip gives little if any increase in volume but greatly adds to the clumsiness of the proceedings.  Playing one   with the 'droops' cant do tha anatomy any good at all.   

I think the long one strap camae in because of the Mally strap - strange that Mally now recommendd two straps for morris.

george ( ducking swiftly) ;)

Like I said, some people like to play this way -- me included -- and some don't. Those who don't -- you included -- think it makes it much harder to play properly for Morris. Those who do -- me and JK included -- would disagree with this.

The long single strap has been around since *long* before Mally -- all the numerous musicians (and ex-musicians who've gone on to other teams) for Smiffs have played this way for more than 30 years, and many have been seminal influences on the English folk and Morris scenes. I'm certainly not claiming we invented the idea, but we've sure been responsible for spreading it :-)

Ian

P.S. Just like muck, George will probably say ;-)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 10:21:57 AM by IanD »
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ladydetemps

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2009, 10:18:46 AM »

To me playing with one strap and supporting the keyboard with hand or bits thereof is rather like a concert pianist trying to push a grand piano across the stage whilst playing ;)

george

I like that........... Can't you just picture it?............ Morecambe & Wise?  ;D

Skipy

My motto is I can play all the right notes but not nessasarily in the right order. :P

Well I can play shepherds hey on the concertina like Les Dawson on the piano ;)

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2009, 10:20:16 AM »

Quote
in t;he interests of good & honest debate  I disagree with most of what you have said - sorry.  Waving the bellows around  like sail does nothing for the finesse  of the music  = & yes I have over the years played for a number of morris sides.  Bicepts Bicepts   or indeed chest should be substituted by elbow & wrist movement.  Pulling the thing like a yard of trip gives little if any increase in volume but greatly adds to the clumsiness of the proceedings.  Playing one   with the 'droops' cant do tha anatomy any good at all.  

*cough* now comes the delicate question....Lets just say being a lady will a erm..chest pose me problems when playing or effect number of straps recommended? How high up/low down should the melodeon rest?


Maybe it's not clear from the picture I attached, but the box doesn't normally rest against my chest, it's held away from it from my right hand -- this is also the case with other female players like Katie, the box players for the Shropshire Bedlams, and others.

So should you choose to play this way there should be little problem with your chest -- unless it's *exceptionally* large :-)

Ian

P.S. The "two straps" method is likely to cause more of a problem, I would have thought...
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ladydetemps

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2009, 10:24:52 AM »


Quote
Maybe it's not clear from the picture I attached, but the box doesn't normally rest against my chest, it's held away from it from my right hand -- this is also the case with other female players like Katie, the box players for the Shropshire Bedlams, and others.
oh I didn't spot the picture before you mentioned it. lol! As I was viewing the thread on my mobile when I read it and it doesn't show photo's.  :(

Quote
So should you choose to play this way there should be little problem with your chest -- unless it's *exceptionally* large :-)
no comment ;)


Quote
P.S. The "two straps" method is likely to cause more of a problem, I would have thought...
That's what I was worrying about. :|||:
« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 10:27:59 AM by ladydetemps »
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george garside

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2009, 10:53:29 AM »

there are many ladies of various circumference who play wiht 2 straps and indeed some also use a back strap ( a small leather strap that goes between the shoulder straps to pull them together behind your back & so prevent straps slipping off shoulders.)  Of course all ladies who play piano accordion use 2 straps  so personal shape should not make any difference.
george
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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2009, 10:57:29 AM »

there are many ladies of various circumference who play wiht 2 straps and indeed some also use a back strap ( a small leather strap that goes between the shoulder straps to pull them together behind your back & so prevent straps slipping off shoulders.)  Of course all ladies who play piano accordion use 2 straps  so personal shape should not make any difference.
george

I've spoken to well-endowed female piano accordion players who would certainly disagree with this...

Ian
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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2009, 10:59:29 AM »

I suppose that it's a case of trying things out and seeing what works for you. It probably depends on what you want to play, how you want to play it, and what sort of box you are playing it on. I agree a lot of really good morris musicians play with one strap, but most other types of players use two. I would certainly agree that beginners should definitely use two, because initially you need all the help you can get to control the box.

A couple of days ago I posted in another thread that I have just taken delivery of a Loffet 3 row, which came with a backstrap attached to the straps. I tried out the backstrap for the first time yesterday and was amazed at the difference it made. It puts the weight of the box evenly on the middle of your shoulders, and leaves your arms and hands completely free to move around the keyboard and basses without having to support any weight...and ther's no danger of the straps slipping off your shoulder.

Finally, I can vouch for the fact that having an erm chest doesn't make any difference to the position of the box, but having small hands and biceps like spider's kneecaps probably does!

Pauline

ps I'd written this before George's post.
pps ...and Ian's!
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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2009, 11:13:41 AM »

Quote
I suppose that it's a case of trying things out and seeing what works for you. It probably depends on what you want to play, how you want to play it, and what sort of box you are playing it on. I agree a lot of really good morris musicians play with one strap, but most other types of players use two. I would certainly agree that beginners should definitely use two, because initially you need all the help you can get to control the box.
well I'm not planning on playing for morris....
I have been considering if I could find one for the right price getting a casagnari lilly...but will probably end up with a pokerwork or erica.

Quote
A couple of days ago I posted in another thread that I have just taken delivery of a Loffet 3 row, which came with a backstrap attached to the straps. I tried out the backstrap for the first time yesterday and was amazed at the difference it made. It puts the weight of the box evenly on the middle of your shoulders, and leaves your arms and hands completely free to move around the keyboard and basses without having to support any weight...and ther's no danger of the straps slipping off your shoulder.
So could I balance it on my lap like I do with the concertina at all?

Quote
Finally, I can vouch for the fact that having an erm chest doesn't make any difference to the position of the box, but having small hands and biceps like spider's kneecaps probably does!
I have smallish hands, (apparently) long nails and a tendancy to slouch so if I play for too long my back hurts.  ::)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 11:19:05 AM by ladydetemps »
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IanD

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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2009, 11:15:09 AM »

I suppose that it's a case of trying things out and seeing what works for you. It probably depends on what you want to play, how you want to play it, and what sort of box you are playing it on. I agree a lot of really good morris musicians play with one strap, but most other types of players use two. I would certainly agree that beginners should definitely use two, because initially you need all the help you can get to control the box.

A couple of days ago I posted in another thread that I have just taken delivery of a Loffet 3 row, which came with a backstrap attached to the straps. I tried out the backstrap for the first time yesterday and was amazed at the difference it made. It puts the weight of the box evenly on the middle of your shoulders, and leaves your arms and hands completely free to move around the keyboard and basses without having to support any weight...and ther's no danger of the straps slipping off your shoulder.

Finally, I can vouch for the fact that having an erm chest doesn't make any difference to the position of the box, but having small hands and biceps like spider's kneecaps probably does!

Pauline

ps I'd written this before George's post.
pps ...and Ian's!

All my above comments only really apply to relatively small light melodeons like a Pokerwork (or Oakwood, or most other 2-reed 2-rows) -- with a big heavy 2.5 or 3 row box playing standing up with a single strap isn't anything like as easy, partly because the increased depth makes it much more prone to the "right-hand swivelling" problem, usually made worse by the strap hanger position being wrong for single-strap playing (too close to the body).

If a beginner is aiming to play mainly for Morris I don't agree that they should start with two straps, it's very hard to switch afterwards. But then I think the best way to play for Morris is with one strap -- which is how all budding Smiffs musicians get taught and they seem pretty happy with it -- so I would say that, wouldn't I ?

Ian
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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2009, 11:20:49 AM »

Quote
I suppose that it's a case of trying things out and seeing what works for you. It probably depends on what you want to play, how you want to play it, and what sort of box you are playing it on. I agree a lot of really good morris musicians play with one strap, but most other types of players use two. I would certainly agree that beginners should definitely use two, because initially you need all the help you can get to control the box.
well I'm not planning on playing for morris....
I have been considering if I could find one for the right price getting a casagnari lilly.

Quote
A couple of days ago I posted in another thread that I have just taken delivery of a Loffet 3 row, which came with a backstrap attached to the straps. I tried out the backstrap for the first time yesterday and was amazed at the difference it made. It puts the weight of the box evenly on the middle of your shoulders, and leaves your arms and hands completely free to move around the keyboard and basses without having to support any weight...and ther's no danger of the straps slipping off your shoulder.
So could I balance it on my lap like I do with the concertina at all?

Quote
Finally, I can vouch for the fact that having an erm chest doesn't make any difference to the position of the box, but having small hands and biceps like spider's kneecaps probably does!
I have smallish hands, (apparently) long nails and a tendancy to slouch so if I play for too long my back hurts.  ::)

If you aren't targeting Morris, plan to play sitting down, and tend to slouch, then two straps might make the slouch worse since the weight of the box hangs from your shoulders.

Sitting down with one strap the box is off to your left braced against your legs/knee (depending on whether you cross your legs while playing, which most single-strap players do), and the weight doesn't pull you forwards so much.

I suggest you try both one and two straps and see which feels more comfortable -- but in both cases try and get someone who does play that way to show you how the box should be positioned and braced, especially to get the strap length right.

Ian
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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2009, 11:29:29 AM »

If a beginner is aiming to play mainly for Morris I don't agree that they should start with two straps, it's very hard to switch afterwards. But then I think the best way to play for Morris is with one strap -- which is how all budding Smiffs musicians get taught and they seem pretty happy with it -- so I would say that, wouldn't I ?

Ian

Does that mean that you accept the bame for Morrisey? ???
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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2009, 11:30:15 AM »

LDT, personnally I'd ignore George and Ian's disagreement and try both methods (one and two straps) and see what suits YOU :||:.  

I started out playing (standing) with one strap and found it impossible to keep the strap on my shoulder without contorting my body and wasting energy fighting the box to keep it where I find it comfortable to play.  I now play with two staps and a back strap for morris (standing) two straps for Italian (standing) and one strap (sitting).  
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Re: Voices and Bass's - things I don't understand
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2009, 11:38:07 AM »

LDT, personnally I'd ignore George and Ian's disagreement and try both methods (one and two straps) and see what suits YOU :||:.  

I started out playing (standing) with one strap and found it impossible to keep the strap on my shoulder without contorting my body and wasting energy fighting the box to keep it where I find it comfortable to play.  I now play with two staps and a back strap for morris (standing) two straps for Italian (standing) and one strap (sitting).  

Hey, that's what I just said ! Do you work for GCHQ on thought interception or something ?

Oh wait, nobody's supposed to know about that...

Ian
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