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Author Topic: Eb/F Direction Question  (Read 2019 times)

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Peter Savage

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Eb/F Direction Question
« on: April 16, 2014, 09:19:39 PM »

I am currently putting together a 2.4 row, 12 bass layout and am struggling to figure out the ideal direction of the Eb/F buttons on the treble side. 

It seems that most "standard" 12-bass layout have the F bass on the pull.  However, along side this I see Eb/F on the Castagnari standard tuning, but F/Eb on the Salterelle standard tuning...both with the F bass on the pull. 

Presuming that I go for the standard F bass on the pull, can anyone tell me why you would have the F naturals on the treble side on the push?  (as in Salterelle layout and John Spiers layout). 
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Anahata

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Re: Eb/F Direction Question
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2014, 09:33:35 PM »

Can we assume you're talking about a D/G box?
I used to have F on push and Eb on pull, and I switched them round and haven't regretted it.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Eb/F Direction Question
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2014, 10:04:04 PM »

If you like to play blues sort of music then Eb pull is a b9 in the D/G Em scale and very cool

If you want to explore klesma/central European harmonic minor stuff you want Eb push as it is the 3rd of E  harmonic minor's signature B7 chord. Without the tritone clash between Eb (it's actually acting as D#) against its 7th=A  .. there is no cadence .. no "harmonic" so you lose the whole purpose of the scale  :|glug
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Peter Savage

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Re: Eb/F Direction Question
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2014, 06:18:42 AM »

Sorry, yes - I am talking about D/G here. 

My presumption is that the F bass/chord is intended to be primarily used when playing in C or F.  So, on the surface, it would seem to make the most sense to have the F treble on the pull, to match the bass.  However, when I see the Salterelle layout and the John Spiers layout (F on the push) then doubts creep in - there must be a reason why they have it the other way round?
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Eb/F Direction Question
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2014, 06:49:22 AM »

Don't think it is, as C is awkward on a D/G, and F … I've not tried. (anyone?)

i used to use F acc for playing in G for tunes that passed into mixolydian, eg the chorus of "sloop John B" which chords G/G7/C/Cm. F push, Eb pull is great for that, but we don't design for single tunes?

I think these particular accidentals are mainly "about" harmonic minor tunes as per above. That's also why the "army issue" D/G has a B major push bass. But as ever, depends what music you play.

[ed] My recently sold Oakwood 12 bass had pull F. It was most (very!) useful playing in C major. F isn't much used without a Bb chord (either end)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 06:54:10 AM by Chris Ryall »
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robotmay

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Re: Eb/F Direction Question
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2014, 10:08:22 AM »

I had a bash at trying to play a tune in F on my 2-row D/G the other week; it's possible to do the treble but it's not particularly comfortable. There are quite a few Naragonia tunes in F, which I've just been transposing to G to learn. I imagine F is more comfortable to play on a 2 1/2 row, what with the easier F/Bb location and the necessary basses.
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Clive Williams

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Re: Eb/F Direction Question
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2014, 11:26:52 AM »

Sorry, yes - I am talking about D/G here. 

My presumption is that the F bass/chord is intended to be primarily used when playing in C or F.  So, on the surface, it would seem to make the most sense to have the F treble on the pull, to match the bass.  However, when I see the Salterelle layout and the John Spiers layout (F on the push) then doubts creep in - there must be a reason why they have it the other way round?

I think it's as unscientific as 'that's how my pokerwork came, and I'd like it the same on my new box please'; that was certainly the case for me as I'd got used to playing certain tunes in C with a push F. I'd flip it without hesitation now though, principally to get that Eb on the push so it can be played against a B modal or major bass.

Cheers,

Clive

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Re: Eb/F Direction Question
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2014, 12:34:43 PM »

I think f on a pull is a must, I have 3 octaves of f all on pull and it just feels natural, to use as accidentals as well as playing in c and f, you can play flower of Scotland with relative ease in f.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Eb/F Direction Question
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2014, 01:12:25 PM »

My Saltarelle has got the Eb/F arrangement on the third row, and although I don't propose to change it now after many years, I agree it might be better if flipped.

Quote
If you like to play blues sort of music then Eb pull is a b9 in the D/G Em scale and very cool

Although Chris, if you do like to pay blues, then a push F against the G chord is going to be even more useful, I'd have thought?

There's also a slight issue with counter-intuitive pitch direction, if the previous button is the (highly useful) E/D flipped version of the D/E button on rows 1 and 2, because you've got a push E followed by a push Eb on the next button up.  I have found this problem, once understood, does melt away somewhat with a little specific practice, but it can actually be unnecessarily confusing.

I think the only support I would give to Eb/F might be that if you want to have the opportunity to play interesting and unusual chords as part of a piece, then the very 'contrariness' does allow you to 'mix them up a bit' with creative bass and treble fingerings.  For example, if you wanted an Ema7, Ebma7, Dma7 run (as I did on one piece), you have on the push 3rd row for the Ema7 a low E and a high Eb, with a B bass, and various opportunities for the other chords.
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squeezy

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Re: Eb/F Direction Question
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2014, 08:59:38 PM »

The only reason the John Spiers Layout is like that is because the box was tuned that way when I got it!

The F on the push is very useful for a) playing a G7 chord - and b) for keeping the run of notes in C major as push-pull fashion as possible ... but I also own other melodeons with F's on the pull and I find them just as useful that way round too.

My favourite layout at the moment for a 3 row D/G/+ is on this pdf with both Eb and F represented in both directions and only having a D reversal on the inner row (no C or E push) and I'm getting on very well with it.

As a rule of thumb - the push Fs are very handy for playing within the key of G major or D minor and the pull Eb is a fantastic grace note for E minor tunes - but for playing in G minor, C and even F with good left hand harmony the pull F is far more useful.  I don't think there is a right way round at all.
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oggiesnr

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Re: Eb/F Direction Question
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2014, 09:59:44 PM »


My favourite layout at the moment for a 3 row D/G/+ is on this pdf with both Eb and F represented in both directions and only having a D reversal on the inner row (no C or E push) and I'm getting on very well with it.


Did you use the carcase of a three row CBA as the basis of that box?

Steve
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squeezy

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Re: Eb/F Direction Question
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2014, 12:50:20 AM »

Yes.  But I made sure it was one of the smallest ones ever made.
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Squeezy

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Peter Savage

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Re: Eb/F Direction Question
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2014, 06:29:04 AM »

Thanks for all the replies everyone.  It has certainly clarified why some folks have Eb/F and others have F/Eb.  I now just need to make the decision for this box...leaning towards the F on the pull for this one I think. 
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Graham Spencer

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Re: Eb/F Direction Question
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2014, 09:13:48 AM »

My Saltarelle came from new with the F on the pull and E♭ on the push. I always assumed that was Saltarelle standard till I played one and suddenly found that button the wrong way round! I can't recall now which way round the B♭/A♭ pair was, but mine has B♭ on the push.

Graham
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Bob Ellis

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Re: Eb/F Direction Question
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2014, 11:26:31 AM »

In my original layout, which I have been using successfully for around eight years (see the three-row keyboard layouts elsewhere on this site), I had the F natural on the pull, the middle octave E flat on the pull as well, but the high and low octave E flats on the push. This system works well in concert with the F natural basses on the pull and the E flat basses on the push and I am comfortable with it.

However, I have spent a long time recently re-examining my layout, especially with regard to E flat, to see whether it could be improved before ordering a new box that has been mentioned in another thread. I have come to the conclusion that it would suit the French and Scandinavian tunes I play if bothF and E flat were on the pull. I have adjusted my accidental row accordingly, with the exception of the low octave E flat, which can't be changed without losing my D push, which I use a lot. I have also changed my bass buttons so that the outer basses at the chin end of a 12-bass system have F# on the push (which is very useful when playing on the D row, where D, F# and A are all on the push) and F natural on the pull. The inner basses at the chin end are now B flat on the push and E flat on the push, so I will have both F natural and E flat basses on the pull.

The box with the new layout will not arrive until July, so I haven't had an opportunity to test out my theory in practice yet, but, by providing me with both E flat and F natural on the pull, I think this will give me the best of both worlds.
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