Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?  (Read 7318 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« on: May 25, 2014, 09:56:47 AM »

See Andy Shear's inspiring video of this tune on a parallel board. It's been eating at me over the weekend. I like to see tunes as chord sequences rather than a list of notes, this is a classic. I've got this far, and if this helps other people interested in Japanese ;) tunes, good

1. Phrase one is very diatonic, in D, rocking onto an A sus in last bar
     The sus chord substitutes for A7; far more folky
2. Phrase 2 runs an unusual A-D-Gsus-D? I see the first 3 chords as
    as a substitution for an A7>D7>G7 line of dominants, conveniently
    melodeonic in dropping their 7 chord notes, and then letting a
    Gsus chord  to miraculously  resolve "upward" to D. Very clever!

MfFH's B is part written out in C, F and F with a weird Db. I think that's wrong and see it as

3. 8 bars in F but with no B note. Chords rock C-F, ending on F …    F is dominant of
4. 4 bars in Bb lydian, there is an E but it's E♮ , feels "awkward"?     Bb is dominant of
5. 4 bars in Eb diminished, actually just a Ebdim chord. Ebdim=Adim. A is dominant of
6. Another 8 bars in D … tension /more tension /resolution 8)

So F>Bb>Ebo(=Ao)>D. That major>lydian>diminished structure also ramps tension?

7. To finish off Simon Jeffes uses more classic Anatole, a stack of dominant relationship: A7 (Asus if preferred), D7 (a real "characteristic" C♮ this time), Gsus again (once again underpinning a lydian G scale with C#!) … and round we go. A masterpiece! Now it's just a matter of finding those little right end notes… ::)

Link to dots used http://www.china2galway.com/tunes%20music%20for%20a.jpg Apologies for repeated edits, I keep finding new nuances!  I've been trying this out on a DG, but it is a classic Irish half tone piece (eg Sharon Shannon). If using accs, knowing the chord in play helps with note substitutions, ie anything from Eb,E,F#,G,A,Bb,C#,D should work on the really high voltage diminished phrase? Still experimenting …
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 11:07:40 AM by Chris Ryall »
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Boyen

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 126
  • C#/D DINNIII
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2014, 10:22:28 AM »

Lovely analysis of the tune, the breakdown in chords is actually very insightfull for me.
I've been playing this one for a while, I learned the Shannon Sharon version from Raquel Gigot at a workshop.
Just a note that it's not Japanese music, Penguin Cafe Orchestra is a British band. Though it was written as a result of a trip to Japan and finding a harmonium.
Logged

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2014, 11:04:07 AM »

Well spotted! (I do believe Jeffes wrote it in Tokyo though)? BTW my family also "found" a harmonium - someone was chucking it out - and these dots (in original C) sat on it for several years by the front door.  Making progress. Dare I try it at Chester? :|glug

Google, google: Found in Kyoto, might still be a Tokyo recording? See http://www.penguincafe.com/original/simon2.htm (who think it's a 'jig') :o
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 11:13:04 AM by Chris Ryall »
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2014, 05:06:35 PM »

Original PCO version in key of C - courtesy of BBC in 1989

   http://youtu.be/yJg1NNyke2E

The syncopation is stronger, looks that the Irish dots version came from bagpipes
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Chris Brimley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2019
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2014, 10:01:27 AM »

Interesting to see that the pianist/harmoniumist doesn't bother playing the other chords, he just sticks to the tonic C and fifth G notes as drones all the way through.  That, I would hazard a guess, might be slightly tricky to add in to a box version!
Logged

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2014, 11:12:47 AM »

I noticed that, and (18 bass) tried it against D drone or pedal note. To my ear the F and Bbs as per above worked better, D an easy variation though ;)

This tune is so about its rhythm that other arrangement things become … pretty flexible. Lyra's ABC's similarly show that sections 2&3 can be interpreted in F>Bb, or C>F without losing too much.

What feels important to my ear is to get the tension of the dim chord in there. I'm using C#G basses pull. But (pull)E is in the chord. Or stick a finger down the rt end, steal a low C# on your D row? Or one might have a Bb accidental right way …
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 11:57:59 AM by Chris Ryall »
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Chris Brimley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2019
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2014, 11:55:20 AM »

Chris, I haven't tried this on the box, but some year ago tried it on guitar - on your part 4 above, I played Gm7 and Gm6 - the E seemed to fit OK, as it would do as part of the Gm6.

And on the Ebdim chord, wouldn't that be CG rather than C#G if using a dim7 chord, which wouldn't clash so much with the D drone note?  However, the Eb against the D drone is certainly still some tension!
Logged

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2014, 12:06:21 PM »

Our posts coincided! From this morning's little practice …  A pull bass is nicely tense too, that's to regard the dim section as A dim,b9 rather than Eb ordinary dim (same notes of course) ;)

Basically I see the B music is a palpable ramp of tension ending up on a C#G tritone (which resolves to D, as in the momma papa A7 incarnation). The rest is about altering the dominant, and we know anything can work there. I'm presently working the dim scale, but C triad notes work, or Eb, even F#. All magically resolving to D. But than all these triads (also their minors, Cm etc) are "contained" in the Adim,b9 scale.

Wow, it's like descending into Dante's Inferno!  >:E
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

David J

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 185
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2014, 01:15:52 PM »

Have a look at Jamie Huddlestone's version

http://youtu.be/cuVOanmsjSY

Great player
Logged
Luukinen Elene III, Baffetti Binci, and an increasing number of Hohners

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2014, 02:22:55 PM »

Nicely played and would overtake my present version easily on the open road. He's climaxing it on a half diminished chords though (mode 7 of his D scale), remaining modal in approach. It resolves the same way, but I'm looking for a firework on those 4 bars ::) just had a lot of fun with (the DG's built in) F# blues scale, and Eb turned out to be a good rocket launcher  :||:

Grr, gotta get into work :'(
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 3538
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2014, 10:51:07 PM »

Original PCO version in key of C - courtesy of BBC in 1989   http://youtu.be/yJg1NNyke2E

I suspect Simon Jeffes may have been influenced by the organ intro to The Who's "Won't Get Fooled Again" ;)

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2014, 07:41:02 AM »

Entirely possible. Seems Jeffes was an eclectic listener, and this is all in the interstices between Folk, Rock, and Classical music. And yes, he borrowed. The demise of John Cage inspired "CAGE/DEAD" … I think I've still got the ABC for that somewhere ;)
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

oggiesnr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 995
  • Dino BPII, Alfred Arnold Bandoneon, Loffet G/C
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2014, 06:59:30 PM »

The version of the dots I use has some chord suggestions and is here http://www.freesheetmusic.net/music/bigfolk/MusicForAFoundHarmonium.pdf.

It's also quite a clunky transcription  (:)

Steve
Logged

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2014, 08:53:52 AM »

Looks to mostly "work" against what I've been practicing. Dm in the start of the bridge looks interesting. I've been hanging F, or dabbing a C, but Dm is relative minor of F so should work. I've no thirds, so it's be a matter of "suggesting" an F within a D chord (but not while I'm eating this egg)!

The C#dim7 is arguable, but that is what Jamie plays in the video, and as a RH chord is a simple matter of using the 4 pull notes on outer row of D (…it's always been there folks!). Original seems to use full C#dim notes, implying a C# dim scale (there are two) rather than the dim7's locrian mode? But hell, this is a classical port onto folk instruments.

Playing dim over the (implicit) A7 chord seen later is no problem, absolutely standard jazzers trick. I
have come to prefer A there, but all the notes from the C#dim seem to work.

What I agree is "clunky" is to score/ABC it all in D with a million accidentals. The key centre of this tune actually does shift, three times, then back. Which is sort of where we began?
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Lyra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 558
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2014, 12:52:08 PM »

I have this arranged for flute and piano by Phil Coulter with some fairly hefty chords in the piano part. Being in a book, it would be wrong to post it but it would probably keep you entertained for an evening :)
Sir Jimmy Galway/Phil C search youtube - many people posted it if you want a listen.
Logged

Chris Brimley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2019
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2014, 04:35:23 PM »

Quote
The C#dim7 is arguable, but that is what Jamie plays in the video, and as a RH chord is a simple matter of using the 4 pull notes on outer row of D

I'm scratching my head here, Chris - but doesn't the double flat on the dim seventh mean you need a Bb rather than a B for this chord? (Which may well be available on the third row.)  I know that these chords are sometimes ambiguously annotated, but perhaps not in this respect?  Having the double flattened seventh gives a lovely opportunity here to use the famous rising tension of these chords by raising each note three semitones to give the next inversion of the chord, though it would be tricky!

Logged

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2014, 07:20:57 PM »

Yes, it's semantics. The school I follow would call C#EGBb a "diminished" chord regard it as symmetrical, the concept of 7th having rather less meaning in the 8 note scale.

I think I picked up dim7 as meaning the C#min7,b5 here, though I'd call it "half diminished". Wiki uses your notation so apologies. Yes it's a bit muddy sometimes.  I do prefer C#EGBb here, and yes it has all the possibilities you suggest (due to its symmetry ;)).

So what do *you* call the other chord, the one you get pulling all four notes on the D row? C#EGB? The one on the video?

Thanks for the Galway link, Lyra.
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Chris Brimley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2019
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2014, 08:17:27 PM »

Ah, could be C# half-dim7, or C#Ø, or some might say C#mi7b5. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-diminished_seventh_chord waxes lyrical about it!

(I should add that I only very recently found out about the difference between half-dim7 and dim7 after years of blithely playing Ø wrong - probably why I mentioned it here, as a newly-converted!)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 08:21:28 PM by Chris Brimley »
Logged

Idelone

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 135
  • Now that's what I call a-peeling.
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2014, 01:49:49 AM »


Yes, it's semantics. The school I follow would call C#EGBb a "diminished" chord regard it as symmetrical, the concept of 7th having rather less meaning in the 8 note scale.

I think I picked up dim7 as meaning the C#min7,b5 here, though I'd call it "half diminished". Wiki uses your notation so apologies. Yes it's a bit muddy sometimes.  I do prefer C#EGBb here, and yes it has all the possibilities you suggest (due to its symmetry ;)).


I can't say that I subscribe to your theory regarding diminished and half-diminished chords; semantics and being muddy don't really tie in with my experience. The theory hasn't changed from some thirty odd years ago when I studied harmony at Goldsmith's. At the time the Americans favoured the very logical approach (which they probably still do) and Aebersold produced an abundance of play-along records (pre CD era) with which every budding player could hone their improvisational skills on. Supplied with these was a scale syllabus where all chord tonalities and their respective scale choices were very clearly and methodically documented, leaving no room at all for doubt.  I must admit that most of the theory I've left behind, but do you not think that the 7th is in fact fundamentally important to the colour of the chord, as, apart from the scale choice, it is that which differentiates the diminished from the half-diminished ?

Logged

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Music for Found Harmonium - what chords?
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2014, 09:00:43 AM »

Simple answer is yes. i was taught diminished as a 4 note chord and to omit one of those notes is surely to "diminish" it? To my ear anyway. You lose the ability to repeat it "all the way up" and it also has implications for modal substitutions eg playing Eb triad notes

Trouble with melodeons is that most don't have all notes same way, some chords are impossible, and fudges are inevitable.  But dim's flexibility derives from its symmetry, and containing two tritone intervals, here C#G and EBb. Both need all four notes

The half diminished arguably needs its 7th interval even more ::) its tritone is intact in the simple triad C#EG, but played that way, particularly on melodeon, one's ear tends to hear it as an A7 without its bass? It sometimes is referred to thus here, to be fair mainly in one row context.

I try to to use the right one in context. For ½dim that's when you play this tune with modal rather than tonal approach? 
 
it is the nomenclature that is sometimes imprecise. I've a couple of Abensold's books, which don't always use European convention. Anther example is his E7+9; we'd call that an ALT chord. With guitar people using their own conventions eg G- for Gmin I suspect we'll never bottom this.

Could I suggest that this forum settle on 'dim' as meaning three stacked minor intervals, and 'half-diminished' for the other chord, the final interval being 2-tone (major) in that one? Both meaning four note chords.
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal