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Author Topic: choosing a melodeon  (Read 6991 times)

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alan_p

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choosing a melodeon
« on: June 03, 2014, 12:07:37 PM »

Hi everyone, my first post.
  I am going out on Saturday (7/6/14) to buy my melodeon (box)
Could anyone give me some advice?
I became interested when visiting a friend in France who plays very well he let me have a go and I loved it. (He doesn't speak much English) so couldn't have a big discussion with him.
I have looked on the internet and watched some of daddy long les videos, and appears I need to know what I want to do before I even start!! That`s not really possible is it, who knows, which direction I`ll go and  how good I`ll get?
I think (because it was France) he probably had a G/C box, and I liked the mellow tone of it, but these are not that popular in England so I think that the learning information wont be as widely available as for a D/G box.
The other thing is that as I`m retired and buying this from savings I will probably only get one (Lots of posts about needing about 5 or 6 boxes not in my price range) so I need to get this right first time.
Would getting a 3-row box help. I don't want to get something that will be harder to learn in the first place, I need it to be as easy as possible to keep me enthused.
So to summarise, 3 row or 2 row and what keys.
Love to hear any advise (don't just put it back to me and say do what you think best) Thanks Alan
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Theo

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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2014, 12:19:24 PM »


The other thing is that as I`m retired and buying this from savings I will probably only get one (Lots of posts about needing about 5 or 6 boxes not in my price range) so I need to get this right first time.


It is very unlikely that you will get it right first time.  There are so many different permutations that it is extremely rare for anyone to get a first box that they stay with for the long term.  Try as many as you can before you spend your money, talk to as many players as possible, have some ideas about what music you want to play.  If you want to play French dance music GC is likely to be more suitable, but it's not the only way.   You may not end up with more than one box at a time, but you will be very fortunate indeed if the first one you buy turns out to be right for you in the long term.
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ButtonBox21

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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2014, 12:22:01 PM »

Welcome to the group. You came to the right place for advice. This forum is loaded with experts on playing and repair. Unfortunately, a one size fits all melodeon really does not exist. You need to decide what type of music you want to play then find the most common style and key of melodeon used for that genre. Don't get anything made in China as it will be poorly made junk with no resale value. Try to fine a nice used box. Once you have decided on a starter melodeon, find an instructor to get you started. If possible, attend a few sessions and talk to the melodeon players. You can get some valuable information from them. Good luck. :||: :|||:
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nigelr

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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2014, 12:56:17 PM »

Hi Alan

Welcome.  I went through the same process last year - although I was definite that English/Morris was my thing so I soon realised D/G was the setup for me.

Firstly, as you have done, I trawled YouTube for melodeon videos and tried to work out which ones I preferred the sound of.  The very wet Hohner Pokerwork/Erica sound is not really for me, so I started looking for something a bit dryer (thinner) sounding.

Also, I asked around and was advised to buy the best I could afford with the caveat that anything under £400 might not be a good idea in the long run (although this limit is a bit arbitrary).  I decided that I wanted a wooden box rather than a plastic (celluloid) one.  Just these few choices whittled down the eligible boxes straight away.

I also went through the 2 / 2.5 / 3 row debate, but decided that it was probably best to start smaller and then if I liked it and wanted to progress then I could.  This guided my thinking that I also needed to pick something with an OK resale value if I need a trade-in at some point.

Many here will advise to play a box before you buy.  I didn't because I had no idea how they worked and there really isn't much in the way of music shops locally.

In the end I went for the Sandpiper Curlew D/G bought following a phone call with Jon Loomes at the Music Room in Cleckheaton.  I waited until after the summer festival season and bought one of their ex-demo ones, so saved a few quid.

Whilst it isn't an issue for me at all, in hindsight I probably should have asked more questions about tuning.  My box has low notes (the low end of the G and D scales) rather than accidentals (the notes not in the D and G scales - F, Eb, G# and Bb) so there will be some tunes I won't be able to play on this box.  Having said that, I have been learning for 8 months and haven't come close to needing them yet.  However, the tutor books do have sections using these notes, so I will just have to skip those for now.

Any questions I have had about the box and learning where everything is have been answered expertly by the contributors here - to whom I am very grateful.

Will I buy another box in the future?  Probably, but I think I would struggle to get rid of the current box, which I really like.

Finally, be prepared to become utterly addicted (:)

Hope the above goes some way to helping.  Good luck.

Nigel
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2014, 01:25:51 PM »

Don't get anything made in China as it will be poorly made junk with no resale value.
This is an oversimplification.
It is true that there are some cheap and nasty Chinese instruments out there - I won't say on the public forum which makes they are, but if you send me a Private Message I will advise as best I can.

Hohner Pokerworks and Ericas are certainly not 'poorly made junk'. They have been made in China for Hohner for quite a few years (20?) now. At the beginning of the outsourcing there were some quality control issues, mainly causing problems with spring breakages. However, these have been sorted and now Chinese-made Hohners are pretty much as good as you could wish for in that price range and calibre of instrument. Excellent quality and very reliable.

The Music Room's 'Sandpiper' range are also made in China and again are exceptionally good value instruments for the price. Definitely worth considering for beginners and intermediate players alike.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2014, 01:42:08 PM »

Hi,
welcome to Melnet!
If English tunes are where you think you're going, a D/G is the beast for you, simply because it was made to cope with the majority of the English tunes played which are in the keys of D and G.
I bought mine at my local festival, when I couldn't play a tune but.... I went around every stall available, picked up and tried boxes within my price range. I realised some felt ok, some not quite and some.....'nah' and put straight back on the stall.
That was by feel alone - weight ok?; can my fingers reach the buttons, especially the basses?; bellows feel hard to open or ok?; does something happen when I push a button or do I have to squeeeeeze really hard?
There was a surprising variation, noticeable even by me who then knew nothing!
If you can get along to a festival, often large ones like Sidmouth have lots of stall holders so a good variety of things to try, and sometimes festival deals too.
Good luck!
Q
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ocajun

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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2014, 05:52:05 PM »

Hi, and welcome to this not quite parallel universe.
Don't know if these are words of wisdom but:
What sort of music you want to (mainly) play is probably the first decision to make. Then take advantage of people who do have wisdom. I would be the last to contradict Theo but I would say that it is possible to get it right first time. That does not mean that there will not be a second, third etc, time. I started trying to play Cajun and the folk at Cleckheaton helped me with a suitable box. Other boxes since then have also been right, especially the little antique Hohners that were the result of my taking up more than my fair share of Theo's advice. I no longer have that first box but it was right at the time. Latest one? Remains to be seen but I have a feeling it may be right too.
Where were you thinking of going Saturday? Wherever it is, hope there are many good melodeons to squeeze and that one of them is the right one.
Rod
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Idelone

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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2014, 07:26:48 PM »

Hi Alan,
Welcome.
My experience was very much the same as yours, although my friend in France was my brother-in-law, and like you, one try convinced me to go further. I joined melnet long before purchasing a box and spent a long time researching, umm'ing and aar'ing, etc. Finally I found a second-hand one on: http://www.leboncoin.fr/
Also, like you, I decided that the box was going to be a one off purchase. My research led me to this conclusion: that it should be a G/C with alterations plus the ability to remove the thirds in the chords; this was to give the possibility of playing in a number of keys, as well as G and C (albeit with a lot of application), and to allow me to progress without having to change the instrument. After that, I just trolled around various French sites until I found one available.
You ask about buying a 3-row, is it harder to learn ?  A 3-row does not make the instrument more complicated or harder to learn than a 1-row, but it does open up the possibility, over time, to improve and play in other keys, without having to spend more cash.
I am currently playing some English tunes, mainly in Em, which is possible, but you do need to dance around the three rows a bit and select your keyboard direction to suit the basses, this comes over time and with practise (I'm still getting there).
As for G/C or D/G, as everyone suggests, it does depend on where your musical orientation lies, and whether you plan to spend more time in France or in England, but what I will say is, that for me, it certainly paid to buy one of a reasonable quality and I have not regretted the outlay.
You are welcome to PM me if you need further information, I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but that initial step into the unknown can be a bit daunting. I know, I've been there.
What I discovered, and I'm sure you will to, is that there are some very genuine and helpful people on this site, so you have certainly come to the right place.
Ian.
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Marje

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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2014, 10:03:10 PM »

The main thing about the choice of tunings is whether you want to play along with others. If you are in the UK, most session and band tunes are in D or G, unless you play with a specifically French group who may use other tunings. Any given tune can be played in any key, so there's nothing to stop you playing your favourite tunes on any box, but playing alone is a bit limiting.

And yes, you may not find the ideal box first time, but you can always trade it in for something more suitable later.
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george garside

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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2014, 10:32:41 PM »

I agree with Marge  in respect of DG being probably the most useful tuning if wishing to play with others and assuming that you are in the Uk - But alas like many other posters  you havn't even given us a clue as to your whereabouts!

george ;)
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Andrew Wigglesworth

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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2014, 11:52:26 PM »

I agree with Marge  in respect of DG being probably the most useful tuning if wishing to play with others and assuming that you are in the Uk - But alas like many other posters  you havn't even given us a clue as to your whereabouts!

george ;)

To be fair, I think the comment:

"I think (because it was France) he probably had a G/C box, and I liked the mellow tone of it, but these are not that popular in England so I think that the learning information wont be as widely available as for a D/G box."

did indicate England.

Sebastian

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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2014, 09:25:26 AM »

I need to get this right first time.
I don't think that's possible, because you can't assess beforehand whereto your melodeon journey will take you. Personal preferences are so different and they tend to evolve as a function of the instrument one is playing.

Maybe you should consider borrowing an instrument (in G/C or D/G) for some time to find out what YOU really want and if it is the right one for you.

You could also try to buy a mid-class second hand box (in G/C or D/G) in playable condition which you could re-sell without much financial loss.

To buy a three-row (in D/G/C) sounds like a good choice at first, but french G/C boxes are normally dry tuned these days, whereas the english D/G boxes I've heard have a wetter (and - to my ear - nicer) tuning. So you can't have both in one instrument. On the other hand I can't know to what extend this would bother you.
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Marje

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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2014, 10:19:21 AM »

If you get a box with a choice of voices on the right hand, you can select the ones you want to make a wetter or a drier sound. This is one feature I'm very glad I have on mine.

I have low notes rather than accidentals, and I have come to terms with this and don't mind it. If there's a note I don't have, I regard it as an interesting challenge to find a workaround, usually by finding a harmonising note that blends in with the absent one (which someone on another instrument will probably provide).
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Theo

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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2014, 10:46:47 AM »


To buy a three-row (in D/G/C) sounds like a good choice at first, but french G/C boxes are normally dry tuned these days, whereas the english D/G boxes I've heard have a wetter (and - to my ear - nicer) tuning. So you can't have both in one instrument. On the other hand I can't know to what extend this would bother you.

I agree that DGC is not a good choice, but for different reasons.   DGC boxes don't exist (I feel sure someone is going to contradict that, but I've never seen one) because the G row of a GC is an octave below the G row of a DG,   to make a DGC box work you would either have to end up with a D and G row an octave lower than an typical DG or a  G and C row an octave above a typical GC box.    It's just a complete non-starter.
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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2014, 10:53:23 AM »

I need to get this right first time.
I don't think that's possible, because you can't assess beforehand whereto your melodeon journey will take you. Personal preferences are so different and they tend to evolve as a function of the instrument one is playing.

Maybe you should consider borrowing an instrument (in G/C or D/G) for some time to find out what YOU really want and if it is the right one for you.

You could also try to buy a mid-class second hand box (in G/C or D/G) in playable condition which you could re-sell without much financial loss.

To buy a three-row (in D/G/C) sounds like a good choice at first, but french G/C boxes are normally dry tuned these days, whereas the english D/G boxes I've heard have a wetter (and - to my ear - nicer) tuning. So you can't have both in one instrument. On the other hand I can't know to what extend this would bother you.

The reason that a D/G/C is a non-starter is rather more fundamental than differing tastes in tremolo. In any case, I know of plenty of English players who like quite dry or swing tuned boxes, and I have recordings of French players who's instruments are wetter than a wet thing dancing at an outdoor stage at a summer music festival.

The G row of a D/G melodeon is incompatible with the G row of a G/C accordéon diatonique. The G/C box starts the G row an octave lower and there is basically no way to sensibly fit together an "English" D/G with a "French" G/C.

Helena Handcart

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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2014, 11:16:44 AM »

As a relative newbie myself could I suggest an alternative strategy rather than aiming to get it right first time?  This is just my personal view  but it could be worth thinking instead in terms of buying a decent starter box that you won't lose money on if you decide to move on.

I see you mention G/C for the mellow tone but also D/G for practicality in terms of playing along with others in England and it is certainly true that you will find many more D/G players, boxes and suitable tutor material for D/G.  Either way it should be possible for you to buy a decent second hand box at a price that means you won't lose much (if any) money if you decide to change direction, upgrade or find that you actually don't like playing melodeon (shocking, I know but I have heard tell of such things happening)

I got it wrong first time by buying a Delicia Popular Deluxe (known as the Decidedly Unpopular in our house).  I quickly saw the error of my ways and sought out a nice German Pokerwork which was what I had really wanted in the first place.  I sold the Delicia for exactly what I paid for it and moved on the Pokerwork.  Lesson learnt and no money lost, except the cost of posting the box to its new owner.  You could say I got it right second time (and subsequently the third, fourth and fifth times  >:E).

Trying to get it absolutely right first time is possibly putting yourself under a lot of pressure, especially if you are considering buying a more expensive box brand new.

Welcome to melnet and I hope you find the box for you, whatever path you take to get there.  :||:







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Roger Howard

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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2014, 11:21:49 AM »

I think (because it was France) he probably had a G/C box, and I liked the mellow tone of it, but these are not that popular in England so I think that the learning information wont be as widely available as for a D/G box.

A couple of observations that I would make are: [1] if it was the sound of a G/C which attracted you, then perhaps that's what you should opt for - there's a huge repertoire which isn't all French, and [2] actually there's plenty of learning material for the G/C - some of the very good French methods (Pignol & Milleret, and Yann Dour, for example) are in both French and English. I certainly wouldn't let that be a major reason for not going down the G/C route. (Mind you, that's what I play - or try to ;).)

Best of luck with it, anyway

Roger
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 11:24:07 AM by Roger Howard »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2014, 11:44:59 AM »

I think you should step outside the mind set of "get it right first time". Melodeons come in all shapes, sizes and keys, as alluded to above and optimisation tends to depend on what you play, and who with. More advice ++ above.

But they are not like cars. Second hand ones won't strand you in Belgium with a broken chassis, unless they are very old or have been significantly abused. Provided you can see/try before you buy "used" you'll be OK. I'm looking across the room at a 28 year old 2-row, and recently sold a 2001 3-row 12-bass to someone who's delighted with it.

The flip side of this is that they tend to maintain value once the "new from maker" shine has gone. So you can buy eg a D/G 8 bass, the Mondeo of the english pub session scene, and get to know it. After a year or so you will have so many more information points, and a sense of direction. You can sell your first box here at very little loss (I've usually made a gain!) and make a planned step to where you want to be.
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Sebastian

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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2014, 12:36:14 PM »

DGC boxes don't exist ... because the G row of a GC is an octave below the G row of a DG,

The G row of a D/G melodeon is incompatible with the G row of a G/C accordéon diatonique. The G/C box starts the G row an octave lower and there is basically no way to sensibly fit together an "English" D/G with a "French" G/C.
Thank you for putting this straight! (:)
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Re: choosing a melodeon
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2014, 01:02:44 PM »

Don't I spoil this good discussion if I provocatively (for this forum ;)) mention Chromatic Button Accordions (CBA)? You might not know about them. The French play them quite a lot. No bother about right keys and layouts, no "inter-layout conflicts", no push-pull, a decent collection of all needed chords even in simplest instruments, practically any music of any country can be played. The only problems: (1) they are too straightforward and boring for many, some may think they do not suit Western European folk music (but in the East CBAs are used a lot); (2) they weight noticeably more but I saw smaller 6 kg/15 lbs used CBAs for £500-800 which no way worse than big 10-12 kg ones (the latter are for those posh people from music conservatoires ;)).
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