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Author Topic: Utilising the club system  (Read 7599 times)

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Chris Ryall

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2014, 10:21:17 AM »

Perhaps the best compromise - as Chris has hinted at in his previous post - is to have the club 'gleichton' (D on a D/G box) on an additional half-row. You then have the best of both worlds: you retain the familiar fingering layout on the main rows, but you've got that all-important D reversal on the half-row.

Actually, Steve, I'm half minded to "club" my E note or a D and then get Theo to turn the D on helper row to something else useful .. but that really would be MAD :|glug
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2014, 11:53:04 AM »

Actually, Steve, I'm half minded to "club" my E note or a D and then get Theo to turn the D on helper row to something else useful .. but that really would be MAD :|glug
My Mory had a push E / pull D on the half row which I found really useful. Is that the sort of thing you're after? Or was mine simply the Dutch reversal on the half-row?
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2014, 02:43:03 PM »

I'd say

1. Clubbing is, in essence, a drone D on inner row, with reliance on outer row for E pull
2. I'd see an E/D on the half row as a helper, rather than anything "Dutch"
3. Mine is C#/D as it happens, performing the same job for the D row, and its Em, Bm scales
    I still get a D on pull, and the box is a blast in D modes, it might even be "optimal"?  :|glug
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Ollie

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2014, 11:43:39 PM »

One of the reasons I like the gleichton where it is on the club system is that it frees up other notes for the half row. Club boxes generally only have 4 buttons on the half row anyway.

Also, I've never found that having a gleichton has hampered my ability to play lumpy English stuff. I simply move over the the D row to get the E, and then move back. It's still a push-pull change, as it would be if I were playing up and down the row.

However, I first encountered the club system when I was about 3 years into my playing, and I was only 16. I can definitely appreciate that it would be difficult for some to get used to such a change after many years of playing. As much as I love the club system, I can't see it catching on!
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2014, 01:54:44 AM »

Club boxes generally only have 4 buttons on the half row anyway.

Two of my Club models have seven notes on the half row...  Mind you I also have one with four and another with two, but these are really only the standard 2 row accidentals in two octaves. 

The 7 button versions (the full-sized Clubs) really are two and  half row boxes and the accidentals fall to hand just where you need them in a melodic run, rather than having to jump to the end of the row.  I can't say I've taken to the Club system, though.  But when de-clubbed they make a super 2.5 row except for the lack of basses when compared to a current production box.  I think it's a cultural thing, a lady I worked with gave me some sheet music for her favourite Austrian accordion piece -but after struggling through a fair bit of it, I found it extremely boring!  But I have to admit it ventured into realms that could never be played on a UK spec box.

Since mucking about with Clubs, I find I play a pull E on the D row more often as after de-clubbing the treble end it still clashes with the extra bass on push.  Actually on the full-sized boxes there is probably plenty of room to upgrade them to 12 bass...

Rob.
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Theo

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2014, 09:01:45 PM »

If anything it's easier on the smaller ones because they have fewer bass and chord reeds.  I'm currently part way through creating a 12 bass version of a Preciosa.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Sebastian

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2014, 11:11:14 PM »

I think that is music where the Club-system feels 'at home'. Fast runs on pull, chromatic ornamentations, enriched right hand chords:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc2kFSU-3JY
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Willh

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2017, 03:26:06 PM »

As a complete beginner to melodeons and the club system, my initial question about the bass setup is this:

Why not just make the bass chords major/minor ambiguous by having them tuned to the root and fifth of each respective chord? In this way you could still play the bass button and then the (power) chord button with the melody implying/filling in the major or minor sound.

This would have the side benefit of expanding the choice of minor chords available by playing, for example, the A bass button followed by the C chord button to get an Am chord, G followed by the Bb button to get a Gm chord, (etc).

This would also be (I reckon) beneficial for tunes that modulate slightly - say by going from an A major to Am chord.

Again, though, I'm a complete novice and have yet to get my Hohner Club, so am just thinking out loud.

Will
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 08:19:27 AM by Willh »
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Theo

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2017, 04:29:21 PM »

Whether that is possible will depend on the way the mechanism is designed in your particular club. Many of the larger club models have reed sharing between chords which would limit your choice of changes to chord voicing.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Willh

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2017, 04:47:20 PM »

Whether that is possible will depend on the way the mechanism is designed in your particular club. Many of the larger club models have reed sharing between chords which would limit your choice of changes to chord voicing.

Thanks, Theo. I wasn't aware of this.

Does this increase the volume or depth of sound in some way?

I should have been clearer in my comments. What I meant to say was by design, why are they not made with an ambiguous major/minor bass setup or (as I suspect) is it just the case that when melodeons were initially designed and made folk songs just didn't need to have this ability?

Thanks,

Will
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TomBom

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2017, 07:28:13 PM »

IMO musicians wouldn't have been enthusiastic playing neutral chords in a box back when club accordions were designed.
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Theo

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2017, 07:31:34 PM »

And the arguments for and against thirds apply equally well to all diatonic boxes, not just clubs.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Sebastian

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2017, 08:13:14 PM »

This would have the side benefit of expanding the choice of minor chords available by playing, for example, the A bass button followed by the C chord button to get an Am chord, G followed by the Bb button to get a Gm chord, (etc).
The club layout (as the normal two-row layout) in C/F supplies you already whit an Am chord and with an Gm chord. So if you would drop the chords' thirds on the LH side, you would loose all real chords on the LH side for no real benefit - at least in regard to Am and Gm.

But maybe you could find other real world examples where sacrificing the chords by dropping out the thirds does give you a real benefit. I would be interested to learn about them.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 08:24:21 PM by Sebastian »
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Willh

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2017, 08:04:43 AM »

This would have the side benefit of expanding the choice of minor chords available by playing, for example, the A bass button followed by the C chord button to get an Am chord, G followed by the Bb button to get a Gm chord, (etc).
The club layout (as the normal two-row layout) in C/F supplies you already whit an Am chord and with an Gm chord. So if you would drop the chords' thirds on the LH side, you would loose all real chords on the LH side for no real benefit - at least in regard to Am and Gm.

But maybe you could find other real world examples where sacrificing the chords by dropping out the thirds does give you a real benefit. I would be interested to learn about them.

I'm not just speaking in terms of Am and Gm chords specifically. By having ambiguous major and minor chords on the bass side you are freer to imply voicings through the melody. This is done regularly in jazz and other forms of music.

The song's melody (and any proficient improvisation over the changes) will give the listener the proper aural "landscape", if you will.

Using ambiguous bass chords (particularly in faster moving tunes) won't diminish the overall sound and will give the player more options on the melody side. For diatonic/club boxes, this would just be a paired down version of voicing in fifths/fourths:

http://www.keyboardmag.com/style/1290/voicing-with-fifths/27504

Just to touch on a point I made previously, some styles of music like "quasi modulations" (i.e. using both the major and minor versions of a chord either back to back or at least within the same song). This can be heard in some of the "doo wap" songs of the 50s where it was common to play the IV chord (if in G major, the C major chord) and then back it with the minor (C minor) or to just use this minor when diatonically a C major would be called for.

If you have a fully chromatic (or nearly fully chromatic) melody side, an ambiguous bass side just opens up your possibilities. A given player may not prefer that sound, but it still works musically.

Or perhaps a better example would be eclectic musical combinations sometimes used by street musicians (and in other settings) where you might have a fiddle and double bass or flute and double bass and the bass player is only playing single note walking lines and the soloist is only (able) to play single note lead lines. The harmony comes through because of either:

1. the bass player is walking the framework of the chords involved and the soloist is re-enforcing or adding to this via the melody or improvised line.

2. the bass player is just playing 1 and 5 of the chords involved and the soloist is re-enforcing or adding to this via the melody or improvised line.

I don't have any intentions of altering the tuning of my club when I get it. I'm actually looking forward to seeing how I can get the most out of it with its given "limitations". I put that in quotes because I suspect that when these boxes (diatonic in general) were first designed and created the styles of music did not require a lot of expanded harmony. In fact, it would probably detract from the sound. That is, of course, a personal thing for each player and listener. Modern traditional Irish music shows strains of this where a very old song with a basic three chord progression is often reharmonised (quite often using a DADGAD tuned guitar) to bring out different colours in the melody and to take the listener on a bit of a rollercoaster ride where previously this would not have been done. Some folks love this, others loathe it. It's just a matter of personal taste.

Anyway, that was all I was saying. If an 8-button box is limited in its harmonic possibilities such that (as I've read here and elsewhere) some players dispense with using the bass buttons all together, having ambiguous basses would at least give the player an expanded pallet of possibilities should he or she be playing solo and want to draw on these options rather than just opting to play no bass at all.

Will
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 08:24:22 AM by Willh »
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Sebastian

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2017, 09:02:23 AM »

You can do anything you want to your boxes and experimenting with different tunings might be interesting.

What I want to hear about are real examples, real playing. Because I don't understand how you would utilize thirdless 'chords'. Let me give an example: If you play F on the bass side without the third, than you can fill in the major third on the treble side to make it a major chord or you could fill in the minor -- ehm, no you can't. The Ab is only on pull, whereas the F is only on the push. So it's of no use. You can't get the F chord amiguous, at least not so easy as it might look at first.

Your example about the Am and Gm: Please reconsider it. For the construction of these you don't need thirdless chords.
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Willh

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2017, 09:57:01 AM »

You can do anything you want to your boxes and experimenting with different tunings might be interesting.

What I want to hear about are real examples, real playing. Because I don't understand how you would utilize thirdless 'chords'. Let me give an example: If you play F on the bass side without the third, than you can fill in the major third on the treble side to make it a major chord or you could fill in the minor -- ehm, no you can't. The Ab is only on pull, whereas the F is only on the push. So it's of no use. You can't get the F chord amiguous, at least not so easy as it might look at first.

Your example about the Am and Gm: Please reconsider it. For the construction of these you don't need thirdless chords.

Ah, I see where the problem lies here: I don't have my box yet, so am not yet acquainted with what is "physically" possible with them (as opposed to what is musically possible).

That is, I've yet to learn what can be "pushed" and "pulled" at the same time, so I can see now that this will detract from some of the usefulness I was imagining from a purely musical point of view (I have a piano accordion I rarely touch, so was still thinking in unisonoric terms as regards the bass).

But as I say, I don't want to alter the tuning of the box in any way. I'm very happy to find stuff I like and tinker with that as it comes. Some things won't be possible, clearly, but then again, I might not really want to play them on the club.

Thanks to everyone for your replies. All good stuff for the learning curve. :)

Will
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Sebastian

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2017, 02:04:16 PM »

I don't have my box yet, so am not yet acquainted with what is "physically" possible with them (as opposed to what is musically possible).

That is, I've yet to learn what can be "pushed" and "pulled" at the same time, so I can see now that this will detract from some of the usefulness I was imagining from a purely musical point of view
When you have your box and did a little bit of testing and playing, I would be glad to hear from you, what real uses you did find for thirdless LH-chords (even if you doesn't actually have them on your specific Club box), because in the music I play I found very seldom any musical use for them.

(Yes, open fifths sound different, and you could also just prefer the sound of open fifths to full chords, but that's a different aspect, I think.)
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Willh

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2017, 02:45:28 PM »

I don't have my box yet, so am not yet acquainted with what is "physically" possible with them (as opposed to what is musically possible).

That is, I've yet to learn what can be "pushed" and "pulled" at the same time, so I can see now that this will detract from some of the usefulness I was imagining from a purely musical point of view
When you have your box and did a little bit of testing and playing, I would be glad to hear from you, what real uses you did find for thirdless LH-chords (even if you doesn't actually have them on your specific Club box), because in the music I play I found very seldom any musical use for them.

(Yes, open fifths sound different, and you could also just prefer the sound of open fifths to full chords, but that's a different aspect, I think.)

I'll hopefully have it in a few days, but as I'm a beginner at this, it'll probably be at least a week before I can play even nursery rhymes with any real conviction. :)

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean when you say "what real uses you did find for thirdless LH-chords". Do you mean actual examples of individual songs, because I've already listed some uses just as a matter of principle. Whether they can/could be used with a club or other diatonic box remains to be seen because of the physical push/pull limitations that have been pointed out.

Really (to me at least) 3rd-less bass chords would just be a more versatile twist on a bagpipe drone, which is normally neither major nor minor (as far as I know from hearing the pipes played by others - I don't play myself), except that with the 3rd-less chords you would have a broader range of chords you could "fake" (at least in theory - if certain things can't be done for push/pull reasons we'd be back at square one).

If nothing else, it would be better than playing an arrangement where a major chord was needed in a song, but a minor was played because that was the only chord button available for that root (e.g. a Am was played when an A major was needed). I find that jarring and in the tunes I've heard it really detracts from the song/melody. A 3rd-less chord would prevent that clash. Whether that would produce the "sound" that a player likes is another question.

I'll report back on how I'm finding it all as soon as possible. Thanks again for the input and comments. Definitely a lot to learn! :D
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Will

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2017, 04:29:17 PM »

Do you mean actual examples of individual songs
Yes. ;D Sorry, I didn't make it clear enough. :-[ I would like to have individual, concrete songs I could analyse.

The reason is, I hear a lot of fuss about "power chords" and their versatility (which theoretically they have of course). But in the music I play (which is, of course, only a certain fragment of "music", even of "music played on the melodeon") I rarely find situations where I could use their versatility. On the other hand I would loose a good deal of the "melodeonicity" in the sound by sacrificing the thirds. "Power chords" have pros and cons. When I ordered my last Club, I considered a "thirds-out stop", but maybe I need a tad more concrete examples to finally convince me of its usefulness.  (:)
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Willh

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Re: Utilising the club system
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2017, 05:13:09 PM »

Do you mean actual examples of individual songs
Yes. ;D Sorry, I didn't make it clear enough. :-[ I would like to have individual, concrete songs I could analyse.

The reason is, I hear a lot of fuss about "power chords" and their versatility (which theoretically they have of course). But in the music I play (which is, of course, only a certain fragment of "music", even of "music played on the melodeon") I rarely find situations where I could use their versatility. On the other hand I would loose a good deal of the "melodeonicity" in the sound by sacrificing the thirds. "Power chords" have pros and cons. When I ordered my last Club, I considered a "thirds-out stop", but maybe I need a tad more concrete examples to finally convince me of its usefulness.  (:)

No problem. :)

I reckon, though, I'll be working on simple I IV V tunes until I get up enough steam to move to more harmonically complex tunes.

But have no fear! As soon as I come across a decent example, I'll let you know! :D

All the best,

Will
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