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Author Topic: Wakefield Celebration  (Read 4252 times)

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nigelr

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Wakefield Celebration
« on: August 14, 2014, 09:46:44 AM »

Can anyone help with dots/ABC for this tune:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7GAHL7KQts#t=0m31s

I've drawn a blank but I'm not sure if it's the dance or the tune that's called "Celebration".  It's not one I recognise but that's not saying much as that would cover about 99% of all tunes (:)

Many thanks.  Nigel
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Sage Herb

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Re: Wakefield Celebration
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2014, 10:20:44 AM »

Tune is Uncle Bernard's Polka.

Cheers
Steve
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nigelr

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Re: Wakefield Celebration
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2014, 10:24:17 AM »

Excellent - thanks Steve.  N
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**DTN**

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Re: Wakefield Celebration
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2014, 10:57:09 AM »

Played by Jimbo (James Sawyer) ... and yes all that noise comes out of 1 box!! (Dino Baffetti with Dedic tuning )
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Wakefield Celebration
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2014, 11:28:41 AM »

Isn't this the same tune as:  'Here we sit like birds in the wilderness, birds in the wilderness, birds in the wilderness....'?
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Wakefield Celebration
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2014, 11:30:56 AM »

It's also a traditional "last song" up in NE singers sessions (I first heard it in Billingham), as "poor old Landlord; can't get the buggers out, can't get the buggers out, can't get the buggers out …" to the same tune :|glug
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Ebor_fiddler

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Re: Wakefield Celebration
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2014, 08:40:00 AM »

Aka "Cooraclare."  :-*
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pikey

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Re: Wakefield Celebration
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2014, 08:01:27 PM »

As recorded on Topics 'Clare Concertinas'. Then some silly B decided to call it 'Uncle Bernard's' .........
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Broadland Boy

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Re: Wakefield Celebration
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2014, 01:27:57 AM »

I have often wondered if this was a version of a tune my late Grandfather used to sing a song to, the chorus of which was 'The girl I love is up in the gallery, up in the gallery, up in the gallery' possibly an old music hall song ? He was very proud to have been born a Victorian (by a year), an underage volunteer and survivor of WW1 and an early builder of wireless sets - he may have heard it in the trenches or on the air, doesn't appear ever to have owned a cylinder or disk player of any sort.

I expect WW1 saw a few traditional or popular tunes receive new words 
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pikey

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Re: Wakefield Celebration
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2014, 07:49:28 AM »

I think you're right , i had forgotten about that song !
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Broadland Boy

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Re: Wakefield Celebration
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2014, 12:53:09 AM »

Thanks Pikey  (:) glad someone else knows of the song.

Praps Bob's Uncle Bernard adapted it from source if he was a generation older - unless it was even older than the music hall period.

I know Walter Pardon had quite a collection of old 78's of similar era songs / tunes which he often whistled, hummed or sang bits of when working, or played for his own amusement - its unfortunate that this 'lighter' repertoire of less serious or traditional material wasn't caught.

Do you think C# and the other folk tune collectors would have had a broad enough 'palette' to recognise if something they recorded had its roots in the popular music of the urban unwashed ? Knowing little about them I've developed the impression that their collecting was primarily rural, there has long been the implication that they 'cleaned up' that which might have been considered a bit coarse and supposed that 'urban folk' might not feature greatly in their collections and that selling printed versions to those who might be a bit too delicate to have the original lyrics featured somewhere in their motives to collect - this may be a gross distortion and their sole motive was collecting a part of our rich heritage !

No doubt someone on Melnet will know, or at least offer the benefit of their experience / research (I'm mostly OK for opinions and jumping to conclusions at this end  ;D)
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Wakefield Celebration
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2014, 07:26:26 AM »

I have often wondered if this was a version of a tune my late Grandfather used to sing a song to, the chorus of which was 'The girl I love is up in the gallery, up in the gallery, up in the gallery' possibly an old music hall song ? He was very proud to have been born a Victorian (by a year), an underage volunteer and survivor of WW1 and an early builder of wireless sets - he may have heard it in the trenches or on the air, doesn't appear ever to have owned a cylinder or disk player of any sort.

I expect WW1 saw a few traditional or popular tunes receive new words
Oh, that takes me back! My granny used to sing this too. It was a Marie Lloyd music hall song. Also, it was a favourite item on the old BBC television programme 'The Good Old Days' from the Leeds Variety Theatre with Leonard Sachs as Chairman: '... but chiefly, YOURSELVES!'
Can't find any TGOD clips, but this will have to do for now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68gCwBy4ElA
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pikey

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Re: Wakefield Celebration
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2014, 08:59:11 AM »

I think Sharp had an active policy of NOT collecting 'popular' songs. Which is a pity. Contrast my mate Jim Eldon who happily collected stuff like old advertising jingles from Yorkshire singers.
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Wakefield Celebration
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2014, 10:22:18 AM »

Agree with Chris R. I've always known it as Poor Old Landlord...... Etc.
I have a personal feeling that Sharpe and his cronies bicycled around the countryside collecting local songs and tunes went back to their Vicarages ,kept the tune and rewrote the whole thing so that some folks could sing these songs with "plums in their mouths". And not feel embarrassment ! 
« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 10:26:05 AM by Nick Collis Bird »
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Ollie

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Re: Wakefield Celebration
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2014, 11:25:08 AM »

Agree with Chris R. I've always known it as Poor Old Landlord...... Etc.
I have a personal feeling that Sharpe and his cronies bicycled around the countryside collecting local songs and tunes went back to their Vicarages ,kept the tune and rewrote the whole thing so that some folks could sing these songs with "plums in their mouths". And not feel embarrassment !

Sharp did bowdlerise things, but usually just for school consumption, which is sort of understandable. The Keeper is really a song about a bit of hanky-panky, the words were cleaned up so it could be taught in schools. No different to a radio edit of an offensive song, really. But yes, Sharp was rather blinkered about what he was looking for. He didn't want any songs that might have been tarnished by 'modern life', so avoided music hall stuff altogether. All part of his search for authenticity...

Vaughan Williams wasn't all that interested in the words at all, so often just collected the tunes. However, if you look on the Full English, there are some wonderful examples where singers have sent the words to him afterwards. The care and attention that was put into some, like this example shows just how much the singers cared about their songs.
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Re: Wakefield Celebration
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2014, 11:40:27 AM »

I don't know how much Sharp kept of the originals, but Baring-Gould was meticulous in keeping private notes (which survive today) of everything that was actually sung, however rude, though of course he published cleaned up versions.

We do have copies of letters from Ella Bull in Cambridgeshire to Lucy Broadwood, with the words of songs collected locally (mostly from a house servant called Charlotte Few) with comments that the words were "rather coarse" and similar, so presumably the words in those letters and notes were "as sung".
The Edwardian middle classes seem to have been quite squeamish about what was acceptable to print.

On the other hand it's quite likely that some of the raunchier stuff "collected" in the 1960s folk revival was actually invented or spiced up by Bert Lloyd, who doesn't seem to have been a great believer in academic rigour...

I think Sharp had an active policy of NOT collecting 'popular' songs.

It seems that people in pubs also spent a lot of time singing hymns, which Sharp didn't bother with either.

Vaughan Williams wasn't all that interested in the words at all, so often just collected the tunes.
This was sometimes because he recognised them as broadside ballads, of which he had a huge printed collection which he knew well. A title would suffice to reunite the wods with the tune later, and a song researcher not far from here  ;) has of course done the same using the online collection of broadsides on the Bodleian Library web site.
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Broadland Boy

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Re: Wakefield Celebration
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2014, 03:11:42 PM »

Thanks each, seems generally to confirm that the incisive Chris Sugden (who'd have guessed that he was Sid Kipper all the time  :o) was not far adrift using the term 'folk song correctors' ! My impression that the published collected works being akin to the 'Chocolate Box' school of painting likewise, although I had missed the possible justification of their being used in schools.

Certainly explains some duplication of names if there was little cross referencing between 'folk' and 'popular'

Returning to the subject, was there a Marie Lloyd & Wakefield connection or was it merely a popular tune, adapted for a dance and then known by the dance - in the way that a very similar unnamed (or name unknown by the learner) polka was subsequently referred to by the uncle it having been played by ??

Is there an accepted method of defining if a tune is a variant of another as opposed to a different tune ?  Probably pretty subjective and not helped by the interchanging of A & B or other parts, number of repeated parts etc.

Since having been introduced to abc notation through Melnet I have wondered if there is a method of comparing the notation through the PC by interval  (and perhaps note length as a secondary factor) to compare tunes for similarity in part (or whole) and have made one or two attempts to do this using M$Access - unfortunately this has not been sucessful as my abilities with this software have previously focused on mainly numerical data and while I have an idea of what is needed, I can't quite get my 'left hand' working.

General parameters were to ignore key & time signatures and trying to code bar length 'bytes' in terms of e.g. up two semitones, up two semitones, down a semitone, up a semitone being interpreted as +2+2-1+1 etc (key signature becomes important here unfortunately). Then in parallel (or serially) a simple value for the beat length of each note (rests and repeats bit me in the rear end). Having derived a list of these for a variety of tunes, then compare with others bar for bar, part for part etc. and tabulate those which correlate.

Unfortunately the format / syntax used when inputing abc's seems to vary quite a lot so I've not persued this as couldn't see a clear way through normalising the base data, but perhaps this will give a nudge to someone with better skills to have a bash.


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Richard A
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Wakefield Celebration
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2014, 04:01:51 PM »

Tune is Uncle Bernard's Polka.

Cheers
Steve

That actually would seem to be something from Bob Cann's repertoire . Uncle this and Uncle that etc.
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Sage Herb

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Re: Wakefield Celebration
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2014, 04:58:42 PM »

Tune is Uncle Bernard's Polka.

Cheers
Steve

That actually would seem to be something from Bob Cann's repertoire . Uncle this and Uncle that etc.

I seem to remember that it was given its name by John Tams in recognition of the playing of anglo player Bernard O'Sullivan. (See also Pikey's and Chris B's posts. above.)
cheers
Steve
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