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Author Topic: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c  (Read 5313 times)

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Yahiko_n_Tsubame

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Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« on: August 14, 2014, 07:48:50 PM »

So, A fair amount of the keys I have on this melodeon I'm repairing are sticky.
I was told that I should remove the bar and sand the area down, but I can't get the damn bar out.

I've recorded a video of it with my thoughts
http://youtu.be/_3151qZu9Z8

Can anyone help me?
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Martin P

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2014, 08:17:36 PM »

I would guess that securing rod has seized up to other metal parts. I would suggest WD40 very carefully applied in between levers onto rod, using the thin straw nozzle that comes with WD40 cans. Leave to soak overnight and apply more brute force with lots of rotation of the rod. Be very very careful not to get WD40 anywhere else other than connecting rod and adjacent  levers.
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Theo

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2014, 09:19:27 PM »

Using WD40 on wooden components like this is a very very bad idea.  It will soak onto the wood and make it permanently sticky so it is thereafter a dust magnet.  At the same time it's quite unlikely to get into the places where it needs to, and even if it did is probably not going to help.  Your accordion tech's suggestion of using electricity to heat the rod is worth trying, but needs to be done with extreme care because you might merely melt the visible parts of the axle rod, or set the wood on fire.

What you have is just about the most difficult task in accordion repair. Here are some suggestions not based on speculation, but on experience. 
1) use a bench vice to grasp the projecting end of the axle rod
2) use a twisting movement to revolve the whole keyboard round the rod at the same time as pulling
3) cover the exposed levers with adhesive tape to prevent accidental damage while you are heaving on the rod, and to prevent them springing out if you do manage to shift the rod
4) drill into the opposite end of the keyboard and tap that end of the rod with a hammer and a steel drift
5) once the rod starts to move you are in with a chance
6) it is very probable that if you manage to remove the rod you will need to replace it
7) when working on a box of this type always get the keyboard working first, because without it the rest if the box is just spare parts.

Good luck!
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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an bosca ceoil

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2014, 09:30:02 PM »

In place of, or in addition to step 2, with the axle rod clamped in the vice gently tap the end of the keyboard away from the vice. If you can get some initial movement without breaking the rod things can only get better. Do not use any liquid "lubricant" Wood swells when it gets wet???
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Martin P

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2014, 11:19:44 PM »

I was suggesting putting WD40 on metal parts only, applied very sparingly and given time to work. I know box repairers shy clear of lubricants for good reason when near wood, but in this case a bit of oil might just do the trick and rescue the box.
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Theo

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2014, 12:26:49 AM »

I would agree if the mechanism was metal, but it's not. If you take a look at the video you will see that the entire mechanism, apart from the axle rod itself, is made of wood.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Chris Ryall

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2014, 08:41:58 AM »

Does anyone use graphite?
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2014, 08:52:13 AM »

Does anyone use graphite?
Yes - it's been discussed many times on the forum. In this instance, applying graphite is unlikely to solve the OP's problem, which is to do with removing a stuck axle rod.
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Steve
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Martin P

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2014, 10:09:42 AM »

Ah yes, wooden levers. Missed that detail. All my boxes have metal levers so I was jumping in with bad advice sorry.
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2014, 02:00:38 PM »

I was thinking about the issue of why the levers have become sticky and I suspect that the box may have become damp and has not been regularly used, allowing the rod to rust within the levers, so the rust being a greater volume than the original steel has gripped the wood.  If this is the case, the only way to get it out will involve some brute force.  As Theo has said, grip the end in a bench vice and wriggle the box around to try to break it free.  If you do get it out, you may need a new rod and all the holes will have to be gently reamed out to suit - try twiddling a drill bit between the fingers to clean them out.  The new rod needs to be a good snug, sliding fit for reassembly.

Good luck.

Rob.
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Theo

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2014, 03:08:34 PM »

I think the rod is likely to be brass, which can also get stuck to wood,  though less seriously than with rusty steel. The problem with brass is that it is weaker than steel, and may get bent or even broken in the removal process.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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malcolmbebb

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2014, 05:06:21 PM »

The rod does appear to be brass/bronze. It appears to be well insulated by the wood, along its length, so my first approach would be a fairly meaty soldering iron held to it for several minutes to get it good and hot, but not hot enough to do damage.
Allow to cool, wiggle all the levers, do this for a few cycles.

Using a car battery is a tad hard to control and a little brutal, although it could quickly permanently solve the problem...
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2014, 07:33:33 PM »

I recall the brake pins that just would't budge on my motor bike … mechanic suggested that "sometimes a little heat" did the job, and I said "OK" only to watch in horror at his applcation of an oxy-acetyline torch.

But it did do the job! ;)
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forrest

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2014, 07:39:57 PM »


Using a car battery is a tad hard to control and a little brutal, although it could quickly permanently solve the problem...

Connecting a car battery in series with the rod (a dead short) would quickly cause the rod to become rather...*incandescent*, and as you say permanently solve the problem, and possibly cause a few more. Now if a fixed resistance was introduced into the circuit, one could get the rod to heat slightly, hopefully enough to free itself. Perhaps a high wattage incandescent lamp would do.
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The Blues Viking

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2014, 07:25:02 AM »

I recall the brake pins that just would't budge on my motor bike … mechanic suggested that "sometimes a little heat" did the job, and I said "OK" only to watch in horror at his applcation of an oxy-acetyline torch.

But it did do the job! ;)

I had an old VW Beetle with on old style "crashbox" transmission that we wanted to replace with something better. Someone wanted the old crashbox, and we said he could have it if he pulled it out of the bug. When he got to the job, he had trouble loosening the bolts on the trans and decided that the thing to do was to heat them up with a welding torch.

The transmission was made of aluminum.

If you get it hot enough (like with a welding torch), aluminum burns very well.

The engine case was also made of aluminum.

You see where this is going.

No melodeons were injured during this incident.

TBV
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diatonix

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2014, 10:08:05 AM »

Not an easy task! The way I did it once was to cut through the rod in the middle of the keyboard. I was then able to extract the two halves from either side. But I must admit I wouldn't have been surprised had it not worked...
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2014, 10:19:36 PM »

Don't use an incandescent lamp!  They are designed to run at 2000o with 240V across, and resistance changes markedly with temperature. Results may be unpredictable, so at least test first, with spare rod, voltmeter, Ohms law and a slide rule ;)

A 1-2 ohm power resister might be better in series. But the resistance of the rod will be bugger all; very little heat will be dumped within it unless current is pretty massive.  Could you not just heat it by local conduction with a solder iron tip?
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forrest

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2014, 10:41:55 PM »

Don't use an incandescent lamp!  They are designed to run at 2000o with 240V across, and...

The op was speaking of an auto battery, 12vDC (:)  Anyway, it's a long shot. Perhaps a spare "parts" box can be found  ::)
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2014, 11:21:56 PM »

Put a short across a wet cell and it won't be the rod that'll heat up!  I once dropped a spanner across the terminals of my mini's battery.  Five seconds later I was wearing the exploded battery and running for the wash basin.  Acid exfoliation anyone?

Rob.
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forrest

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Re: Sticky keys and bar stuck :c
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2014, 11:45:48 PM »

Best to stay away from power if not familiar with it. Batteries have quite a large fault current capability. :o
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