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Author Topic: On cross fingered chords  (Read 2500 times)

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Chris Ryall

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On cross fingered chords
« on: August 17, 2014, 02:08:39 PM »

This was stimulated by the 12/18 bass thread and a couple of throwaway "dunno what chord it is, but it sounds OK" comments. I'll use standard m7=minor7, Δ=major7 notation, with sus9 and sus4 as the triads made from replacing note 3 with 9(=2) and 4 respectively.

Let's look at the C scale CDEFGABC, others can be transposed. If you have 3rds out (better), what chords may be practically faked in that key? Assume that extended bass has "5" diads of CG, DA, EB, FC, GD, AE, and BF#. I'd like to suggest we toss out the last one immediately as F# is not a note in our diatonic scale and most crosses with it sound sour. OK that B/G is a nice GΔ, but recall that the V chord in C is G7; we've changed key!

For the same reason there is no "crossed" dominant chord. The dominant gets its power from the 3-tone "devil's" interval between B and F. "5" interval is 3½ tones, the interval doesn't exist except by adding bass notes, and the inversions of V chord ain't so useful :-\ We'll just have to fake it with G triad, as ever.

What works? Again, standard notation with G/D as G chord on D bass. Easy major 7s …

  E/C = CE(G)B = CΔ,  A/F = FA(C)E = FΔ  (x)… the missing minor third in the chord

minor 7s? We get three! Again just stack the chord "2 intervals up" on its new tonic

  F/D = DF(A)C = Dm7,  G/E = EG(B)D = Em7,  C/A = AC(E)G = Am7
  these ones also work with the thirds in  :D

Sus chords? Well, a lot! Just grab any "5" diad and put in a base 1 above the tonic C/D, or one below the fifth C/F. Sus9 and sus4 are considered equivalent inversions by some, and melodeon voicings vary. It's a matter of what sounds nice on the kit in hand.

How about crossed chord+chord? To my ear the nicest are those from crossing a "5" with that of its relative minor. Let's stay with C notes and look at F+D.  The notes are FCDA, rearranging to  FACD which is an F6. Strangely I can hear an invisible B natural in that, and it "wants" F lydian played against it, but that is merely C diatonic, starting on F? Entirely cool, though it'll get me into more trouble with the morris men.

Others work, for example that F6 together with an A (better added from right end voicing wise?) is a full Californian 13569th "69" chord. And although it has more notes i,t weirdly has a more open sound, and is technically passage into stacked pentatonics and quartal harmony. I'll save that for special occasions.

Anyone else been experimenting? :|glug
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 10:07:13 AM by Chris Ryall »
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The Walrus

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Re: On cross fingered chords
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2014, 11:19:11 AM »

That's useful Chris, I'll noodling away at the Lahian Polka in Am and Em on my 2 row 8 bass G/C. In Em it calls for a (missing) B7 so I'll throw in that E/C and see what happens. In Am a E7 would be useful, though a full E sounds great. Any tips to fake that on a G/C?

As an aside why does the G# in the E chord work so well in some Am tunes? Am I right in saying both G and G# are making an appearance in the tune, and working together to create tension and resolution to A?
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The Walrus

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Re: On cross fingered chords
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2014, 11:32:11 AM »

I think I'm getting confused with dominant and major 7s, back to the books, and keyboard... :-\
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The Walrus

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Re: On cross fingered chords
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2014, 12:23:25 PM »

Chris, it looks like E/C thirds out CEB  is Cmaj7 not Bmaj7, so probably no way to create a B chord on a GC 2 row 8 bass. :'(
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Sebastian

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Re: On cross fingered chords
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2014, 12:50:12 PM »

As an aside why does the G# in the E chord work so well in some Am tunes? Am I right in saying both G and G# are making an appearance in the tune, and working together to create tension and resolution to A?
The chord sequence (= cadence) of minor tunes imitates the cadence of major tunes. That is:

The basic cadence is V > I. In C major: G major > C major. In classical harmonic theory the V is the "tension chord" which wants to be dissolved into the stress-relieved I. The element in the V-chord which builds up the tension is the second chord note: it is only an half-note under the base note. In the G major chord it is the B, which wants to be dissolved into C.

In the natural minor scale of A: I is Am and V is Em. But in Em the second chord note is a whole note below the base note (G > A). The distance is to big to create the usual tension. To create the wanted tension, one alterates the G to G#. Thus the Em chord becames an E major chord.

In consequence, when the note G appears in Am-tunes, it can be realised as G# when leading to the base note A, or as G natural, when no such tension is wanted.

(Another consequence of the alteration of G to G# is that F often has to be alterated to F# to prevent a scale step greater than a whole note.)
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Sebastian

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Re: On cross fingered chords
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2014, 01:00:19 PM »

Chris, it looks like E/C thirds out CEB  is Cmaj7 not Bmaj7, so probably no way to create a B chord on a GC 2 row 8 bass. :'(
No, there is no way to create a B chord on the bass side of a normal GC. On some tunes (like Zelda) you can replace B with Bm (that is by playing the D chord), but you will always lack the note D#.
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The Walrus

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Re: On cross fingered chords
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2014, 01:07:24 PM »

Thanks Sebastian, once the fingers get nimbler I'll be trying this with the R hand. Can you suggest a simple Am tune where this kind of G/G# and F/F# experimentation on the R might work?
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Sebastian

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Re: On cross fingered chords
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2014, 01:51:11 PM »

Thanks Sebastian, once the fingers get nimbler I'll be trying this with the R hand. Can you suggest a simple Am tune where this kind of G/G# and F/F# experimentation on the R might work?
The easiest example is the minor scale itself. If you play it upwards (G-row, third button pull), you play: A B C D E F# G# A and then downwards: A G F E D C B A.

I have no really good example at hand, but maybe this one works:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRKMPYbMzGA

It is in Em. All appearences of D are alterated to D#, because it appears only as leading tone to the base note E.

In the last line, first measure, there is an arpeggiated Am-chord (E C A). You can play it as a scale run E D C B A. You wouldn't use D# for two reasons: a) the D doesn't lead to E, so it stays natural, b) the step from D# to C would be greater than a whole note. (And you can't sharpen the C to C# in this situation, because C is part of the IV-chord.)
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The Walrus

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Re: On cross fingered chords
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2014, 02:16:47 PM »

Brilliant explanation thanks, I'll try it in Am and throw in the G# accidental when called for.
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Sebastian

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Re: On cross fingered chords
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2014, 02:47:10 PM »

Another example:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rnl1yHHc_4

It is (mostly) in Gm, so one could expect some F#. But in the second measure it is F natural, because the melody doesn't lead back to the base note G. (You could invent a variant leading back to G, than you would use F# and E natural as in these version at 1:10 and 1:40: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBrwyHEJdW4 )

In the second measure of the 4th line there is something like an ending. Endings in minor songs are often brightend up to major (at least in german songs), so you can also hear versions with F# instead of F natural.

In the second measure in the last line, the melody goes A > G, and the cadence is V > I. So there, is a D major chord before G and you would use F# if you play some ornamentation, e. g. instead of the written A3 A | G4 you could play A G F# D | G4.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: On cross fingered chords
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2014, 10:35:01 AM »

Big apology for the CΔ thing. I know the chord so well  :|bl and actually end one of my favourites on it (was told off by a traditionalist last night for that) so sorry for the side track. Yes, everything that has been said about the G# leading note except that I think we are following the wrong trail in trying to set up a B chord on a GC.

It is "about" making a cadence, and the dominant chord in Am is E7 ;) We've proved you cannot cross finger a true "7" on a melodeon left end. We use substitutes: G for G7 and B for B7. But the core of the dominant is not its tonic. It is rather the tritone clash between major 3rd and minor 7 that is unstable, demanding resolution. And loads of mid 20th century stuff uses "Anatole" stacked dominants in this way, «feuilles mortes», "once I was a millionaire" (Adim,D7,G7,C). also called "dominant of the dominant. Also v. popular in tango!

The way to play these is on right end, just about any combo with G# and C in it will do, even a poked in G# against an otherwise stable C bass.? (Works for me)

To me cross chording is less about those classical dominant cadences than about an open framework against which the right end can flow freely. Actually it goes back to the 1960 "so what" watershed in a sense.

One song I'm working on for "war month" is "Shores of old Blighty" which I pitch in G mixolydian. It's happy against a simple G on push. But when it goes pull it crosses, variously and gloriously with any combination of D, F, C, E, (these bass or chord1+5) and the G, A and/or B basses. I don't have a pull G chord, and A,B diads have those out of scale sour notes.

Feels like doing water colours, and quite evocative of a gentle rolling sea, certainly the voice is then "unconstrained". Which sort of what I am after …
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