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Author Topic: 2.5 row, not what I thought!  (Read 11768 times)

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Ollie

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2014, 02:02:39 PM »

Thanks Ollie,

How does it play in Bm? I'm thinking of a 2.4 row SUPER ERIKA and see that the F# base choice of direction is quite variable. Clearly a bass that works well in both directions, but what are the advantages and limitations of F# push vs pull?

S

Edited 0900 18.8.14

It plays brilliantly in Bm, even if my playing in Bm isn't quite up to scratch sometimes.  ::) Here's a tune in Bm on my Super-Erika https://soundcloud.com/olliekingbox/young-damons-flight
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Hohner Erika 12 bass D/G : Hohner Erika Bb/Eb : Hohner 1 row 4 stop D : Hohner Erica 9 bass D/G :

http://www.olliekingmusic.com/

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TedK

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2014, 02:12:56 PM »

I made the move to a 2.5 row D/G a couple of years ago motivated by the desire to play in more keys. I also found wasn't what I thought, but in kind of the reverse of the OP. I thought it would open up loads of extra keys, but I came back to the view that the main advantages of the 2.5 are for better accidentals in the home keys, and reversals to allow "smoother" playing, plus the extra chord and bass possibilities.

In theory the extra accidentals do make the instrument chromatic, but in practice I found that apart from occasional forays into C and A it was much harder than I thought to stray outside the home keys, and that there was a big sacrifice in terms of what you could do on the left hand; tunes just didn't sound as good as on instrument playing in a home key. Of course if you were providing accompaniment or playing as part of a band this might not be such a problem.

In retrospect the whole experience put me off the melodeon for a while and I had to go back to the simplicity of a 2 row D/G Erica to regain my enjoyment of playing again!
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2014, 02:43:00 PM »

Thanks for sharing those thoughts Ted.
I wondered if someone had gone down the route and then wonderd if it had been a good idea.
I think my gut feeling is to stick to a 2 row 8 bass......
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Stiamh

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2014, 02:55:07 PM »

I think my gut feeling is to stick to a 2 row 8 bass......

Thinking about a gut feeling... isn't that a contradiction?  (:)

In theory the extra accidentals do make the instrument chromatic, but in practice I found that apart from occasional forays into C and A it was much harder than I thought to stray outside the home keys, and that there was a big sacrifice in terms of what you could do on the left hand.

FWIW I think that what Ted says is true for most players of semitone boxes, save for a small number of exceptionally gifted players who can actually play in any key (and - pre-empting George - of course BCC# players with their stradella basses). The difference is that on a semitone box you have all the accidentals (exceedingly handily placed) on a mere 2-row. Basses have to be approached differently, of course.

Thrupenny Bit

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2014, 03:37:44 PM »

Ummmm Steve, I'm full of contradictions that's what makes my brain hurt at times  ;D
.... and I had a thought the other night that whilst I think I'm staying on the 2 row road, if there was a 2.5 row sitting in the corner, I'd simply have to have a go!
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

MartinW

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2014, 04:29:30 PM »

So what you really need are 2 different D/G 2.5 rows, and an Eb/Bb, and of course also a Liliput or Preciosa for when your back complains about carrying the heavy boxes, then you will also find another 'bargain' that is too appealing to miss, then you wil need....
Martin
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2014, 04:40:34 PM »

 ;D
Not quite. I have the antidote for collecting too many boxes.
I think you know her  ;)
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

MartinW

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2014, 12:31:49 AM »

Maybe you need to explain that the melodeon world is crying out for a a supply of handmade fabric covers.  These would of course require developing and testing on a wide range of different melodeons.
Martin
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2014, 08:16:05 AM »

Martin, that's an excellent idea.
Don't think she'd fall for it though  ;D
I suppose I could always test the hypothesis if an opportunity arose....  ::)
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Rob2Hook

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2014, 05:52:52 PM »

It seems that venturing beyond the 2 row world is not a straightforward route, but depends on the player and their choices of repertoire.  I often play on a de-clubbed Hohner, but it doesn't tempt me to venture into new keys - I'm far too lazy to sit and ponder about the possibilities and learn lots of new fingering/push-pull patterns.  It's just nice to have accidentals in two octaves and much closer to my fingers.  I'm not inclined to push the enveloppe on a 2 row so it comes as no surprise that I'm like that.

Funnily enough, the guy who taught me to play always said he wanted a 2.5 row, but then he went over to playing anglo and has just spent his retirment funds on a Jefferies to replace one of his Lachenals, so I guess he'll never get a 2.5 row after all.

Rob.
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John MacKenzie (Cugiok)

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2014, 06:21:20 PM »

Having a 2 and a half row, I can play a full A scale, but I still don't play any tunes in A ;)

John
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: Hohner Club Modell 1. Bb/Eb, de-clubbed : Early Hohner Pressed Wood A/D : 1930's Varnished wood G/C:  Hohner Erika C/F: Bandoneon tuned D/G Pressed wood: Koch F/Bb; G/C Pre Corso

Thrupenny Bit

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2014, 09:47:37 PM »

Cugiok - ah and there lies a tale!
As Ollie said at the beginnnig of this thread - his Beltuna enabled him to play in lots of exotic keys but he never used them. Sounds like you're the same. I think about my normal session, or the ones I get to rarely at festivals, and cannot think of a time I'd use such a beast and use keys that would be outside the normal 2 row box. If I launched into something unusual at my monthly session my friends would consider it rude! Therefore there's not a lot of point in buying a 2.5 row for this.
But.....I do enjoy odd tunes and am getting my fingers round the chin end accidentals, so Rob's comment about having more of them and lying easier on the fingers is a positive thought, but....... I do feel myself holding back.
Yet if one fell out the sky I'd probably have a try......
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Chris Ryall

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2014, 10:49:05 PM »

Quite right, you don't use the keys, as the rest of the room is in D G or C

  .. but the dorian mode of Bb is the basis for C blues :Ph
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oggiesnr

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2014, 11:09:58 PM »

I play a 2.6 G/C as my main box.  It's different and if you're used to D/G patterns probably not for you.  I don't have a D/G anymore so I can invest the time in learning the new patterns which are totally different.

However as I first learnt on a G/D concertina and also play bandoneon they make sense to me.

However, the sad reality is that in most sessions you don't need to play outside G and D (and respective minors) and even C is frowned upon in English sessions.  There is also a trade off, the extra weight make the box more unwieldly so you have to use the cross rows and extra row which can reduce the bounce.

If it's your only box then I think it's worth the effort (unless you're playing mainly for morris), other than that I'm not sure I'd bother, especially if I valued being able to move between boxes in different keys and keep he same fingering.

Steve
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Chris Ryall

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2014, 11:21:27 PM »

As it's happens I'm just back from playing for "Dad's Army" Morris, for Wirral amateur dramatics. Did Country Gardens in G  :M (hey, that icon's in Mersey Morris colours)!

... then they all sang "Who are you kidding, Mr Hitler" in F and the extra buttons were very handy (even did a Bb chord) ;) As for sessioning, got to all 12 keys (some just chording) at Whitby last month, others leading the tune. Ab did take a little while to come by though ... (not a favourite)

While we are in G. Bb's mode 3 works great over its D7 dominant? Flat 7, flat 9 ... cool or what?  I'd reiterate, it's not about playing in exotic keys, it's about swinging it in the mainstream ones.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 11:30:21 PM by Chris Ryall »
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Bob Ellis

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2014, 12:12:31 AM »

I've been playing mainly 2.6 and 3 row boxes for over ten years now and I find it somewhat restricting when I pick up a 2 row 8 bass box.

For me, there are two main benefits of a 2.6 or 3 row box: (1) the accidentals are easy to reach and are positioned close to the notes near them in the musical scale, which makes for easier playing in non-standard keys; (2) I have reversals for all the notes in the scales of D and G, which gives me more options in my bass line and helps with the addition of grace notes and other ornaments.

However, an extra half or whole row really requires extra basses (a minimum of 12 in my view) so that one is not restricted unduly at the bass end when playing in non-standard keys and so that one can make the best use of the reversals on the extra row.

As for playing in keys other than D and G in sessions, it depends on what other instruments are in the session. When there is a preponderance of melodeons, the keys are inevitably going to be almost exclusively D and G, but I play in a session where mine is often the only melodeon and tunes are played in a whole range of different keys. The Euro sessions at Whitby were also a good example of this, where tunes were frequently played in C, Am, Dm and Gm.

Quentin said that he plays mainly English tunes, so this will limit the usefulness of other keys for him, but I still think that the opportunities provided by reversals on the extra row make a 2.6 or 3 row box worth having, even if one only plays in D and G, provided that the box has at least 12 basses.
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Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

Theo

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2014, 07:37:57 AM »

Good point about the 12 basses Bob.  If looking for a box with more capability than a standard 2 row 8 bass I think extra basses might actually be more useful than a part row of accidentals, if one had to choose only one.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2014, 07:55:33 AM »

Yes, the bass option is another side issue.
I met one of Steve Freereeder's fellow musicians at Sidmouth and planned to have a go on her Fazzy, the 12 bass version of my 2 row/8 bass Hascy. Unfortunately we never got together as dancing with different sides always at different venues we became ships passing in the night. A shame as it was a missed opportunity.

I'd like to think I have a reasonable left hand as I write left handed though reasonably even handed for other things. I enjoy bass runs when possible. I do find it frustrating at times not to have an F# on the left hand to allow a bass run in G. Having the 12 basses does mean that gets sorted, although the weight then goes up.
It makes the case strongly for Ollie's 9 bass setup!
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

baz parkes

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2014, 01:04:27 PM »

Play the clever stuff on your tina, buy a 1 row dreckly....problem solved... :|glug
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Bob Ellis

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Re: 2.5 row, not what I thought!
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2014, 05:21:51 PM »

Why buy a weedy 'tina when you can have the full melodeon monty? The raison d'être behind several 2.6/3 row layouts (including my own) is to enable one to play not only standard tunes in D and G, but also "the clever stuff" in other keys, using reversals and employing interesting bass lines all on the same box. No need to lug around several boxes or ever to have to touch a concertina.  :Ph
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Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.
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