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Author Topic: The Measure of One's Ability  (Read 5306 times)

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Grape Ape

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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2014, 09:19:22 PM »

Agreed!
I will stir the pot a bit as it becomes clearer to me (as the fog clears) what I was driving at. Take the seemingly deified (on this site anyway) Andy Cutting.  His fame was not built (as far as I can tell) on the playing of the classics be they songs or tunes or somewhere in between. His fame is built on original pieces.  And yet the esteemed bandonion player of another thread, or the likes of Cyrille Brotto or maybe Bruno Letron seem to have built their reputations by playing the classics, albeit with their own unique stamp. The question is purely speculative and designed to illicit opinions on whether 'tis nobler to pursue the songs/tunes in one's head vs perfecting a repertoire of classics, or both?
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Canorus

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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2014, 09:58:17 PM »

My personal measure is "Am I better at this - whatever I happen to be attempting to play - than I was yesterday?"  I'm too new to fine-tune it any more than that.

Interesting discussion on tune vs song.  I've played highland pipes for 30+ years and one of the first things any instructor seems to point out is that we play tunes not songs.  And that's "tyunes" not "toons", to be sure.  (Or as one instructor informed me, "Chunes!  As in 'chuna fish sandwich'".)  Fascinating to find a quite similar point being made in a completely different musical area.

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-John-
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Pete Dunk

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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2014, 12:41:41 AM »

I will stir the pot a bit as it becomes clearer to me (as the fog clears) what I was driving at. Take the seemingly deified (on this site anyway) Andy Cutting.  His fame was not built (as far as I can tell) on the playing of the classics be they songs or tunes or somewhere in between. His fame is built on original pieces.

I think perhaps Andy Cutting's popularity on this forum is bourne of his years of hard work honing his skills without benefit of any formal training or great knowledge of musical theory. There are in fact a number of members of the forum who are really accomplished players who have little or no formal knowledge of music, they just play it, and very well. Andy Cutting also plays in a style that is popular with many members here, so I would say that he is well respected as a performing musician, sought after as an inspirational workshop tutor and well liked as a truly nice man. He's not deified though, heaven forbid!

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The question is purely speculative and designed to illicit opinions on whether 'tis nobler to pursue the songs/tunes in one's head vs perfecting a repertoire of classics, or both?

That's an imponderable and entirely down to each musician to decide what what it is that they want from music. I never had sufficient ability to take the subject seriously as a career move but it's been a lifelong passion as a hobby. I'm a far better listener than a player but some of what I listen to is music I'm unable to approach because it's beyond my skill level. There's also a devil of a lot of stuff that's much more within my reach and I get a great deal of satisfaction and pleasure from playing that!
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Graham Spencer

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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2014, 06:12:04 AM »

Please don't think I'm being dismissive, but I honestly find it a bit of weird question; surely ability is not a matter of WHAT you play, but how well you play it?  I don't have a great deal of enthusiasm for C&W, but that doesn't stop me appreciating the superb musicianship of some of its star performers.
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Bob Ellis

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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2014, 09:05:56 AM »

Of course, there is no right answer to the question, but, speaking personally, I tend to appreciate an inventive and expressive performance of a traditional or well-known tune more than an equally expressive and inventive performance of a new composition. I think this is because I think I know what to expect from a traditional or well-known tune and can therefore appreciate more readily when somebody plays it in a particularly expressive and interesting way, whereas with a recent composition I haven't heard before I have nothing with which to compare the performance.

Having said that, 'new' tunes such as Andy Cutting's Flatworld, Frédéric Paris's Ganivelle or Martin Ellison's A Small Fee become classics because people hear them for the first time and think "That's gorgeous! I must learn it."
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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2014, 09:12:28 AM »

Please don't think I'm being dismissive, but I honestly find it a bit of weird question; surely ability is not a matter of WHAT you play, but how well you play it?

Hurrah! Someobody's spotted the elephant in the room.

As for Andy Cutting - his playing is the result of thousands of hours of practising obsessively on the melodeon. It's true that he's written a lot of tunes, but we'd never have got to hear them if his playing wasn't so good that he got the opportunities to perform and record them in the first place.

There are lots of very fine players of all instruments who aren't composers.
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george garside

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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2014, 12:41:58 PM »

In many ways its a 'daft question' because it is  very wide ranging and as a result validates the old saying '' one mans meat is another mans poison''.   

The choice of tune  ,existing or self penned,  is only relevant in   that  the chosen rendition  may   turn some listeners 'on 'others 'off'    and others 'on' irrespective of the  quality of the  rendition -( again difficult to define)   

The measure of ones ability is  can also be very different depending on whether its 'self judged'  or the expressed opinion of 'others! When it comes to 'self judging' we can all be widely off beam at times so that is probably best   not to go up that route!

however  the expressed opinion of others  can be equally nebulous, depending on what type of music turns them on or off -

so in many ways it is indeed a 'daft question'

george ;)
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Cooper

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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2014, 12:57:03 PM »

A daft question perhaps...yes. Still.... i kinda admire bands more for playing their own compositions badly, than i admire coverbands for playing badly. But it's an odd question. What ability do you want to measure? I know a lot of people who can be great at their box, but they dont compose. And a LOT more people who compose but don't play box. Creativity? Musicality? Craftsmanship? (regardless of whether it is possible to measure those things at all).

For me,..i find it easier to express myself playing tunes of my own than traditional tunes.
W
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oggiesnr

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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2014, 02:03:01 PM »

This is horribly similar to the endless debates on assorted guitar/bass/keyboards sites as to whether tis nobler to be a bad originals band or a brilliant covers band.

My personal take is it depends what you want to do and whether you're any good at it.  I write about one tune or song every other year so I play "covers".  Others can write tunes and songs, some of them very good but some (I've heard too many singer songwriters) are cringingly bad (as are some covers).

However, playing and composing are two different skills and without musicians prepared to play them songs and tunes (and operas and symphonies) die.

Each to there own and may it be done to the best of ones' ability.

Steve
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Cooper

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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2014, 02:56:49 PM »

This is horribly similar to the endless debates on assorted guitar/bass/keyboards sites as to whether tis nobler to be a bad originals band or a brilliant covers band

Steve
Never been on one of those forums, but I can imagine. That's why i compared the two playing badly ;-)
W
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george garside

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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2014, 03:04:42 PM »

what the bloody hell is a 'covers band'  ???  in melodeon land we have morris bands, English/Scottish/Irish country dance bands , ceilidh bands and maybe  even marching bands.

 Presumably a 'covers band' is one of the  foregoing   playing  with the added benefit of a roof of some sort  toy keep out the rain  and  thus  prevent the onset of soggy bellow disease and rustyreeditis

george  ;)
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Graham Spencer

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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2014, 03:13:40 PM »

Ah, now I've played bass in a number of covers bands, George; it's basically a band that plays big-name artists' material (ie "cover versions" - usually of pop & rock songs, but could be any genre). Also known at one time as social club bands ('cos that was mainly where we played).
Those were the days......I can still zip through "Pinball Wizard" or "All Right Now" at the drop of a hat......

Graham
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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2014, 03:17:11 PM »

This is getting a bit like one of Mudcat's "what is folk" debates.
Some people think folk means traditional.
Others say it's only folk if you wrote it yourself.
 ???

"Covers band" only means anything in the pop music world where it seems the default position is that you write all you own material, hence you have to have a special word for when you don't.

If you apply it to other genres of music you end up with some quite bizarre terminology, like Symphony Orchestras being "covers bands"...
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oggiesnr

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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2014, 04:08:57 PM »

Ah, now I've played bass in a number of covers bands, George; it's basically a band that plays big-name artists' material (ie "cover versions" - usually of pop & rock songs, but could be any genre). Also known at one time as social club bands ('cos that was mainly where we played).
Those were the days......I can still zip through "Pinball Wizard" or "All Right Now" at the drop of a hat......

Graham

... and not to be confused with "Tribute Bands" where the aim is to play one major act's repertoire note perfect and if possible look the part  (:)

I actually came across a Jimmy Shand Tribute Band some years ago, they were actually quite good!

Steve
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Graham Spencer

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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2014, 04:21:10 PM »


... and not to be confused with "Tribute Bands" where the aim is to play one major act's repertoire note perfect and if possible look the part  (:)


Well, that cuts out "Pinball Wizard", then......
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Rob2Hook

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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2014, 05:08:20 PM »

The prospect of firing up "Pinball Wizard" in a pub session (on a box, of course) - wonderful!  We were challenged at Broadstairs one year to play some Rock and Roll during a children's dance.  In case you're wondering, Dark Moon Rising.

Rob.
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Grape Ape

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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2014, 02:29:31 AM »

Yes, Yes, Yes, and YES!!!!
(But please no Yes tribute bands....)

Of course it is a "daft" question. We don't use that word much in the States and would likely get a funny look for doing so.  I would say the question is downright pointless borderline stupid.  I admitted to typing it after many beers (even by British standards and measures), and I concede to all of the above.
BUT, Look at the responses and discussion it has sparked on what has otherwise been a bit of a quiet Melnet of late. It is a thing of beauty!

I have been thinking about my own question. You know, if it is Rock and Roll I can not abide cover bands. The music has to be original. That said, in general when listening to Jazz, I love when The Standards are played, and as stated above, do not think of it as playing a cover.  Classical music, I can not even imagine or think of pieces being composed nowadays except for movie scores, and have to admit that every Ochestral performance I have seen has been, perhaps by definition, a performance of Classical works.  I guess I wonder where the Melodeon falls into this, and the evidence suggests, All of the above.  It is a great medium for composing original tunes, playing the classics or reinterpreting them, and playing covers.  It is steeped in tradition, but in a state of reinvention. Maybe that's what makes it so awesome!

Personally, I have been playing a lot of original stuff lately.  Just for me, I do not play for audiences except a few friends here and there.  I feel guilty because I am not expanding my repertoire, but it is just so fun and there are just so many tunes constantly bursting out of my head, and sometimes the box itself.  I don't believe people when they say they can't write their own tunes, as the melodeon will write them for you if you let it.  I feel it makes my playing more fluid the play freely, but the downside, is that my repertoire stays small, and there are MANY more tunes and songs I want to learn......
« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 02:36:15 AM by Grape Ape »
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Graham Spencer

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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2014, 06:01:08 AM »

The prospect of firing up "Pinball Wizard" in a pub session (on a box, of course) - wonderful!  We were challenged at Broadstairs one year to play some Rock and Roll during a children's dance.  In case you're wondering, Dark Moon Rising.

Rob.

"Substitute" is a bit easier on a box........
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Grape Ape

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Re: The Measure of One's Ability
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2014, 04:40:33 AM »

Either one would be a treat! Use this for inspiration!!!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_3eQmm-EYPE

 :|||:



« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 04:47:42 AM by Grape Ape »
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