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Author Topic: Concertina/Bandoneon  (Read 4471 times)

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Cooper

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Concertina/Bandoneon
« on: September 07, 2014, 11:21:20 PM »

I found an auction for what they called an "Alfred Arnold". It's square, but Concertina written on it.
7-6-7 buttons on one side, 5-6-5 on the other.
How would i know it is in fact an Arnold? Should that be written on the instrument somewhere?
"wilh. kruse markneukirchen concertina" does that ring a bell somewhere?

Any of you know what it would be, and what it would be worth roughly when in decent shape?
thx!
W
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 11:37:00 PM by Cooper »
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forrest

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2014, 06:45:38 AM »

Quite likely an early Chemnitzer or Carlsfelder concertina. Also a good chance that it contains multiple reeds on large plates. As for whether it's a genuine "Arnold", hard to know. Rather limited in scope. There are many many Chem's out there for sale. Some are in pristine cosmetic condition and can be had for a very reasonable price. However, most need interior work...valves, tuning, etc. Some of the old double-reed ones (Hi/Low) can have a wonderful voice. Proceed with caution....try to find someone who owns one in playing condition and try it out.
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Sebastian

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2014, 07:46:30 AM »

How would i know it is in fact an Arnold? Should that be written on the instrument somewhere?
Yes. In big letters, that can't be overlooked.
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Cooper

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2014, 08:24:00 AM »

How would i know it is in fact an Arnold? Should that be written on the instrument somewhere?
Yes. In big letters, that can't be overlooked.

ok, thx. Not taking the chance then,
W
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2014, 08:25:49 AM »

I found an auction for what they called an "Alfred Arnold". It's square, but Concertina written on it …,what it would be worth roughly when in decent shape?

Round? :|glug
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Sebastian

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2014, 08:46:23 AM »

ok, thx. Not taking the chance then,
I don't think the instrument would necessaryly be better, if it was from AA. But it certainly is a rather small (old?) instrument. (A bandonion wouldn't have the word 'concertina' written on it.)

You can find nice image galleries on concertinas and bandoneons there: http://bandonion.info/galerie.htm
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Cooper

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2014, 09:55:56 AM »

ok, thx. Not taking the chance then,
I don't think the instrument would necessaryly be better, if it was from AA. But it certainly is a rather small (old?) instrument. (A bandonion wouldn't have the word 'concertina' written on it.)

You can find nice image galleries on concertinas and bandoneons there: http://bandonion.info/galerie.htm

Yeah, probably not, but i don't have enough knowledge to buy something from the net that is NOT from a wellrespected name.
thx for the help!

It looks a lot like this one btw http://bandonion.info/solo,a-87.htm
W
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 09:58:32 AM by Cooper »
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oggiesnr

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2014, 11:43:31 AM »

On my bandoneon the reed blocks have Alfred Arnold stamped on them but mine is much later model (1939).  I'll have an ask round for you.

Steve
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Pete Dunk

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2014, 11:05:40 PM »

As a concertina player (English system) I remain unsure about the difference between a chemnitzer and a bandoneon. Are these just regional terms for the same/very similar instruments?
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Sebastian

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2014, 11:32:18 PM »

As a concertina player (English system) I remain unsure about the difference between a chemnitzer and a bandoneon. Are these just regional terms for the same/very similar instruments?
They are all the same, just different button layouts.

The basic ca. 14 buttons are the same for all three systems. But when more buttons were added different layouts began to evolve. Uhlig made the first concertinas. He lived in Chemnitz in Saxony. Heinrich Band lived in Krefeld in Rhineland, hence his button layout is called "Rheinische Lage" and the instruments are called after himself bandonion/bandoneon. The third layout is called Karlsfelder after the city of Karlsfeld near Munich.
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Pete Dunk

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2014, 12:05:56 AM »

Thanks for that Sebastian, for once I've actually heard of all of the systems although I don't really understand any of them. So question No.1, are all of the systems usinoric/bisonoric or a mixture of the two?
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Sebastian

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2014, 12:29:39 AM »

All of them are bisonoric. (There are some few unisonoric outer (= later added) buttons on the reformed german standard bandoneon.)

When bandoneons became fashionable in Paris and elsewhere several unisonoric systems were developed (Péguri, Kusserow, C-Griff, ...), but I don't know any détails about them.

(Maybe this subject is better covered on concertina.net [or by triskel].)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 12:40:08 AM by Sebastian »
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2014, 10:11:39 PM »

I have an Alfred Arnold concertina and have posted some pictures of it on Photobucket.  It does have the AA trade mark clearly visible on it, both printed and on the grille over the airvalve vent.

http://s780.photobucket.com/user/rob2hook/slideshow/Alfred%20Arnold

Rob.
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Sebastian

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2014, 11:40:13 PM »

The third layout is called Karlsfelder after the city of Karlsfeld near Munich.
Sorry, this was a blackout on my side. It is called after the municipality of Carlsfeld near Klingenthal, where the Arnolds came from. I suddenly remembered, while admiring picture No. 11 of Rob2Hook’s slide show, where I read "Alfred Arnold, Carlsfeld/Erzgeb.".

Don’t know, why I thought about Munich. Maybe because of the fact, that there are regular courses about playing Karlsfelder Konzertina in Franconia. Nevertheless, there were Konzertina/Bandonion-makers in Munich, too. ;)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 11:45:52 PM by Sebastian »
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2014, 02:56:39 PM »

I have an Alfred Arnold concertina and have posted some pictures of it on Photobucket.  It does have the AA trade mark clearly visible on it, both printed and on the grille over the airvalve vent.

http://s780.photobucket.com/user/rob2hook/slideshow/Alfred%20Arnold

Rob.

Rob that's wonderful, it looks brand new.
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2014, 05:59:13 PM »

I think the camera may have flattered it a bit, the overall effect is good but up close the black laquer has a slightly overdried look to it.  Still not bad for its age!

I wonder how the development of the different german concertina layouts went - not so much the weird and wonderful arrangement of the tones produced by the buttons so much as the actual position of the buttons.  Mine has a definite three long rows on each hand which is better for me as my stubby little hands would struggle to reach any further but it involves a degree of movement of each hand within the strap to reach the ends of the rows.  Perhaps if the player had larger hands this would be more manageable, but as the bandonion added more and more notes/buttonsthey stacked up in a pattern that more matches the reach of the hand, basically ending up with five short rows, so I guess others found the long rows awkward.

Rob.
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Sebastian

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2014, 06:55:41 PM »

Perhaps if the player had larger hands this would be more manageable
Perhaps you hold your instrument in the wrong position. It should not lie flat on your legs but on one edge, so the position of the hands/arms is a little bit downward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qqx1-gtOb0
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pikey

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2014, 10:13:46 PM »

Why am I reminded of Bugs Bunny ?
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oggiesnr

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2014, 06:39:07 AM »

Perhaps if the player had larger hands this would be more manageable
Perhaps you hold your instrument in the wrong position. It should not lie flat on your legs but on one edge, so the position of the hands/arms is a little bit downward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qqx1-gtOb0

Not necessarily, Piazolla played with the centre of his box resting on one knee and then bent the bellows downward as they opened but with a flat box position.  I've see a number of German players who play with it flat, an end on each knee and some others who rest one end on their knee and pull from the other end, again with the box flat.  I've also heard arguments for and against position  (:)

Steve
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squeezy

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Re: Concertina/Bandoneon
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2014, 10:17:52 AM »

I've got one of those smaller ones with 3 rows ... it's single voice in E / A / G like most chemnitzer type boxes.  Pretty rough reeds on single plates - but it was cheap and is a fun little thing.  I would only ever suggest it if it is being sold for very little.
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