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Author Topic: Different woods  (Read 19559 times)

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Chris Ryall

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2014, 03:52:31 PM »

… I'd put money on some new theory emerging in a decade or so  :|glug
Not to mention the fact that in properly controlled double-blind tests by experts -- including musicians, instrument makers, music critics, expert listeners -- the Strads were comprehensively trounced by modern violins in all aspects. So much for the almost universally held Stradivarius myth that they sound incomparable...

Looks that I'd have won my little wager faster than anticipated!  :o
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IanD

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2014, 03:54:32 PM »

So apart from the obvious aspect of the bellows becoming more flexible after a bit of use, are there any other aspects to a melodeon, that equates to the playing in, that guitars go through?
Do they mellow? Or do they, like me, just grow old disgracefully?

John

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure, but my impression is that reeds do "play in" over a period of time. Why or how, I've no idea.

Players of Northumbrian pipes believe that sets of pipes also "play in". There's a nice story about Jack Armstrong playing to demonstrate the pipes (I think to an American who was buying a set), and commenting at the end that,"Of course, this set is fairly well played in now." The set in question was over a hundred years old!

 ::)

Roger
Could be true (reeds or pipes), or just another belief.

Many violinists "know" (i.e. believe) that the sound of a violin changes with playing, and that it takes years to "play them in". So an experiment was done with two identical modern violins where one was played heavily for several years and the other was kept unplayed in a museum:

http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/powerhousetwins.html
http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/insidethecollection/2011/12/3191/
http://sciencebyfiction.net/portfolio/?p=113

Nobody -- either listeners or the musicians playing them -- could tell the difference between them, either when new or after several years playing.

Still, many violinists still believe playing-in makes a difference. And they believe that Strads are the best-sounding violins ever made, in spite of the fact that this has also been thoroughly disproved on more than one occasion.

http://thestrad.com/latest/news/blind-tested-soloists-unable-to-tell-stradivarius-violins-from-modern-instruments
http://www.thestrad.com/latest/news/stradivari-loses-out-in-blind-testing-study-of-player-preferences-for-old-and-new-violins
http://www.livescience.com/44651-new-violins-beat-stradivarius.html
http://news.sciencemag.org/brain-behavior/2014/04/elite-violinists-fail-distinguish-legendary-violins-modern-fiddles

Just because people believe something doesn't make it true -- the clue is in the meaning of the word "belief", often linked with words like "religious"...  ;)

(not that I'm in any way saying people shouldn't believe anything they want, it's a free world -- I just object when they put their beliefs forward as facts, which other people then take as such and propagate)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 04:06:03 PM by IanD »
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2014, 04:24:07 PM »

In my uneducated opinion, the playing in factor for a melodeon could be factors that are more mechanical in nature.
I.e. Bellows loose stiffness with use; an overhaul by a tuner rectifies tuning irregularities that might have been left by the maker; a tuner also ensures the action is as good as they can make it after it's bedded in.
I perceive 'playing in' to be more along these lines - correcting minor problems associated with the mechanical workings of this beast - rather than anything to do with wood maturing or such like.
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2014, 04:27:33 PM »

Yes, my reeds are played in now after best part of a decade.  Still, if I get a Christmas bonus, I'll have that repaired...

I would have expected different woods to have a very minor effect on the tonal qualities through resonance, perhaps more on actual volume of sound and would expect every piece of timber to be different even if the same species.  I wonder whether there is also a slight effect on the internal accoustics of the box dependant on the nature of the surfaces - just like the accoustics of a room depend on both dimentions and the nature of the surfaces.  At the relevant frequencies for a melodeon, consider how the sound is affected by one's surroundings when playing for Morris.  I will always chose to stand with my back to a wall, it projects the sound into the dance.  A fence comes second best, but without buildings the music doesn't travel that far.  Good job we mostly find ourselves with a pub wall handy!

Rob.
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Theo

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2014, 05:09:58 PM »

It's my belief that playing is to a considerable extent the player changing rather than the instrument.  The player learns by experience how to make many many small adjustments to technique in order to get the best out of the particular instrument.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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IanD

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2014, 05:47:25 PM »

Yes, my reeds are played in now after best part of a decade.  Still, if I get a Christmas bonus, I'll have that repaired...

I would have expected different woods to have a very minor effect on the tonal qualities through resonance, perhaps more on actual volume of sound and would expect every piece of timber to be different even if the same species.  I wonder whether there is also a slight effect on the internal accoustics of the box dependant on the nature of the surfaces - just like the accoustics of a room depend on both dimentions and the nature of the surfaces.  At the relevant frequencies for a melodeon, consider how the sound is affected by one's surroundings when playing for Morris.  I will always chose to stand with my back to a wall, it projects the sound into the dance.  A fence comes second best, but without buildings the music doesn't travel that far.  Good job we mostly find ourselves with a pub wall handy!

Rob.

Surface finish (e.g. varnished or plain wood inside the box) may make a slight difference because it reduces high-frequency sound absorption on the path between the reeds and the outside world, and may increase the Q of any internal air resonances by reducing losses. The wood material itself makes little difference because almost all the sound energy from reeds is dumped into the air, not the structure of the box -- this is why all the comparisons with stringed instruments where the body is the main mechanism for sound generation (and the material does make a big difference) are invalid.

Things which reflect sound outside the box (like a hard wall) can make a big difference because they also change the way the sound is propagated; playing next to a wall or in a narrow street makes a huge difference compared to playing in an open field. But for this to happen the reflectors have to be reasonably big (several feet) compared to the sound wavelengths, sound doesn't reflect like light off small objects. Most of the bits inside a box are too small to act as reflectors, the sound just travels along with the airflow and maybe a little gets absorbed on the way at the surfaces; the main thing that makes a difference is how long/convoluted/narrow the path is.

So roughly-finished reed blocks buried deep inside, small pallet holes, pallets with not enough lift, thick grilles with not much open area all make for a quieter duller sound; flat-mounted reeds or varnished reed blocks, big pallet holes, pallets which lift up further, thin grilles with lots of open area all make for a louder brighter sound. Plus of course the reeds themselves have a big effect on volume and tonal quality because they make the sound in the first place.

Any of these factors on their own make far more difference than the case material, and for very good reasons -- together they swamp it. Worry about the wood because of how it looks, or how easy it is to work, or how heavy it is, or how sustainable it is, or how expensive it is -- but don't worry about it affecting the sound...
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arty

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2014, 06:01:00 PM »

I agree Theo. I have been reading through this thread but haven't chipped in because I don't really have the experience or knowledge to justify what I think.
My thought was - it is the person playing the instrument day in, day out who gets 'played in', not the instrument. The player gets to know, through constant playing, all the little nuances and subtle characteristics of his instrument and it is with this experience that he can tease out the best sound from the box.
I have noticed myself, after 2 years playing, that the sound I get from my original box, (Pre Pokerwork) is far nicer now than when I first started. The main reason, I think, is my more sensitive use of the bellows and knowing e.g. when to apply a little more pressure and when to back off a little.
Three weeks ago, I got a brand new instrument and even in this short time I am making a much better sound than I did when I first got it. I feel that I have to learn a lot about the instrument before I will get the best out of it. I have to get 'played in' on this box too.
I don't think it is to do with the materials used in the making of the melodeon, well, not in an obvious way but heck....what do I know!
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Roger Howard

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2014, 06:46:25 PM »

So the reeds themselves don't change at all with being played over a period of time?  :-[

(That's really what I was wondering. ... In the pipes, presumably, where the reeds are made of cane, things might be different ... They're certainly affected by humidity and temperature.)

Roger
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Theo

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2014, 06:55:30 PM »

Reeds do change with use and the tuning drifts away from where it should be.  I don't understand why, but the change us real and can be verified by anyone who buys a new instrument and plays it a lot.
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IanD

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2014, 06:59:10 PM »

So the reeds themselves don't change at all with being played over a period of time?  :-[

(That's really what I was wondering. ... In the pipes, presumably, where the reeds are made of cane, things might be different ... They're certainly affected by humidity and temperature.)

Roger
Possible but unlikely in a melodeon. Think about it -- if a strip of hard spring steel screwed or riveted down to a rigid metal frame changed much during playing, when would it stop? When the reed broke? When it changed in pitch? And what could change anyway -- unlikely to be the material properties, maybe the grain boundaries would move over a few million years at room temperature. The reed and frame can hardly change size, if the reed moves in the frame it's likely to buzz.

The most that's likely to happen is that the set of the reed in the frame changes as manufacturing/tuning stresses gradually settle out, which is probably why any pitch/sound changes (if they happen) tend to be in the first few months, then a retune will keep it fine for years -- unless you play really hard in which case the pitch can continue to shift and need regular retuning, assuming reeds don't break under the stress -- this is probably due to fatigue microcracks slowly growing under repeated stress reversals and changing the stiffness slightly (until they grow too much and the reed breaks). Anything that changes the mass of the reed like dirt or corrosion will also change the pitch.

A hard steel reed riveted to a metal frame is probably one of the most stable sound production mechanisms you could devise, and the least likely to need any "playing in". The bellows certainly will loosen up with playing, the action shouldn't if it's properly made.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 07:02:58 PM by IanD »
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2014, 09:04:32 PM »

Thanks Ian for expanding my brief thoughts above, that's what I was thinking about.

Theo has a good point about our playing ability improving rather than the box. Hadn't considered that but it's inevitably true. Everyone improves through playing, though people's rate might vary.
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

IanD

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2014, 06:36:52 AM »

An interesting tale about fatigue cracking, if anyone's interested...

Cracks can grow slowly under repeated stress until they reach a critical size caused the Griffith length, which is short (less than a millimetre) for highly stresses brittle materials (like reeds) but long (several meters) for lightly stressed ductile ones (like steel ships). The best documented record of this was a Liberty ship in WWII where the cook came down one morning after a storm to find a crack in the galley floor. He called in the chief engineer who said "Och, that's perfectly safe" (or something similar, presumably being Scottish). Being of a tidy mind, the cook painted a marker and the date at the end of the crack. As the crack slowly grew over the next few days he kept on doing this, marking the date each time.

In the next big storm the ship broke in two and one half sank, but luckily for science the date markers were on the half that stayed afloat, along with the evidence that this crack was what caused the ship to break up...

(Liberty ships were the first rapidly-built all-welded steel ships, and quite a few broke apart and sank like this before the disadvantages of welding vs. rivets as far as stress relief goes were realised -- unwittingly, the cook significantly advanced knowledge about both shipbuilding and materials science)

-- from one of J.E. Gordon's fantastic books on structures and materials, which among other things explain why you can't put a crease in a worm...
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Roger Howard

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2014, 09:08:02 AM »

Thanks for that, Ian. It seems a pretty full and definitive answer to me (definitely non-scientist!).  :||:

Roger
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Graham Spencer

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2014, 09:21:59 AM »


 And they believe that Strads are the best-sounding violins ever made

One man's "best" is another man's "average".  Now personally I think that a 4-stop 1-row Hohner sounds "better" than a dry-tuned Castagnari. But maybe that's just me........

Graham
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Bobtheboat

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2014, 11:50:25 AM »

Interesting. For me the 4 stop 1 row Hohner is my least favoured melodeon sound. One mans meat indeed. What a rich and varied bunch we are. Bob
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Re: Different woods
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2014, 03:06:17 PM »

From my experience working with other types of instruments I would guess that wood type plays relatively little part in shaping the sound of a box.  There are so many other variable factors that would have bigger and more direct effects. 

I think the "playing in" thing is more about the player than the instrument.  When I change from playing one box to playing another, it takes my fingers hands and arms a while to "remember" the heft, touch and response of the instrument.  The tone and execution is poor when I begin, but improves (well, I think so) as my body's memorised "settings" for that instrument begin to reload and the ones for the last box are deleted.     

Perhaps the one exception to this is the matter of felt.  Felt elements of boxes left unplayed for a time in less than perfect conditions may swell, hindering or reducing key travel, which certainly does affect the sound.  A week or two bashing out reels and jigs opens up such a keyboard and the box's breathing improves, to the benefit of the sound. 
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Graham Spencer

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2014, 03:57:40 PM »

Interesting. For me the 4 stop 1 row Hohner is my least favoured melodeon sound. One mans meat indeed. What a rich and varied bunch we are. Bob

Indeed so, and a jolly good thing too. One of the things I like about melnet is that there are rarely any "right" answers, and 99.9999% of the time everyone is prepared to accept other peoples' opinions even though they may not agree with them.

Graham
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pikey

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2014, 09:23:07 PM »

Oh no I'm not ! Ok, alright then...  ;)
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Re: Different woods
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2014, 09:31:06 PM »

To me, the different sounds produced by different accordions is the exact variety they call the spice of life.  It is a lot like wine. Sure a red Bordeaux has more complexity and is more age-worthy and subtle than a Napa red, however, the Napa red will almost always be more hedonistically pleasurable at the onset.  One does not have to be good and the other bad, they can both be good in their own right.  Dry, wet, swing, demi, four stops, two stops, diatonic, piano, or chromatic, Cajun, French, Morris, tex Mex, or even Polka, it all sounds good to my ears and there is room in my head for ALL OF IT!!!
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pikey

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2014, 10:45:37 PM »

Even Delilah ?  ;)
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