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Author Topic: Different woods  (Read 19558 times)

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John MacKenzie (Cugiok)

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Different woods
« on: September 18, 2014, 05:53:16 PM »

I don't know if you've seen the wee YouTube film, in which John Loomes poses the question, "Does the type of wood used, make a difference to the sound quality, of a melodeon?" He then goes on to play the same tune on 3 different versions of one make of melodeon. The film ends without him coming to any conclusion, which pissed me off.
Do you think it makes a difference or not? If so what do you think works best for which box/configuration? Or is it all tripe?

John  8)
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pikey

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2014, 05:56:13 PM »

It makes very little, if any, difference IMHO.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 06:38:08 PM »

This has been thrashed around before with some people being able to throw acoustic data at it.
One thing you have to remember with Castagnari is that it's a small family concern, not a large production assembly line. A lot is hand made and hand finished so there will be slight variation between the same model.
It begs the question that what Jon heard could be slight differences in wood, or slight differences in finishing by various family members.
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pikey

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2014, 09:12:17 PM »

I once spent an hour playing identical Dino Bincis that sounded different. Same wood. Same size. Same reeds. Different sound. The wood had nothing to do with it.
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Cooper

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2014, 11:23:26 AM »

I once spent an hour playing identical Dino Bincis that sounded different. Same wood. Same size. Same reeds. Different sound. The wood had nothing to do with it.
Which in and off itself is ofcourse no proof of woods having influence or not. I once spent an hour fishing, the woods had nothing to do wih that either ;-)

What it does proof is that it is very difficult to test sounds where just the woods are different, as there are many things that influence the sound, and it's undoable to keep all those factors equal. I guess the only way to prove such a thing is to compare very large groups of boxes of one wood with another very large group of another wood, and hope all the factors are averaged out.
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« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 11:29:36 AM by Cooper »
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Anahata

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2014, 12:11:48 PM »

German Steirische harmonika makers Strasser say they did some research and found the wood  make no difference (scroll down to "Wood (body material)")

"We have performed many tests with various materials (metal, plastic, various solid woods, and plywood) and were therefore able to determine for ourselves that the body material has no effect on the instrument’s sound."
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robotmay

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2014, 12:24:31 PM »

Though it has no effect on the sound, it does have an effect on the weight. The cherry Handry weighs in at 5.6kg and the walnut Handry at 5.9kg, according to the Castagnari website. I imagine it's less noticeable on the smaller boxes, however.

The only thought I had towards the sound is whether the stability of the various woods might affect it depending on environment, but I have no evidence of it having any effect and I'd definitely trust the manufacturers on it (:)
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Mike Carney

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2014, 01:39:13 PM »

Sitting in Rees Wesson's workshop I tried two identical Castagnari melodeons, one in cherry, the other in walnut. We both agreed on the difference in sound between the two. I bought the one that sounded "warmer". Whether it was definitely the wood is hard to say.
Mike
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IanD

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2014, 05:44:02 PM »

Sitting in Rees Wesson's workshop I tried two identical Castagnari melodeons, one in cherry, the other in walnut. We both agreed on the difference in sound between the two. I bought the one that sounded "warmer". Whether it was definitely the wood is hard impossible to say.
Mike
There, corrected that for you  ;D
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2014, 05:52:23 PM »

Maybe we should try one made of corrugated iron. >:E
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Mike Carney

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2014, 06:50:55 PM »

Sitting in Rees Wesson's workshop I tried two identical Castagnari melodeons, one in cherry, the other in walnut. We both agreed on the difference in sound between the two. I bought the one that sounded "warmer". Whether it was definitely the wood is hard impossible to say.
Mike
There, corrected that for you  ;D
Relieved you spotted it.
M
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Anahata

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2014, 07:56:42 PM »

Maybe we should try one made of corrugated iron. >:E

Yeah, that wasn't on Strasser's list. You might be on to something there.
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rees

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2014, 09:11:06 PM »

Sitting in Rees Wesson's workshop I tried two identical Castagnari melodeons, one in cherry, the other in walnut. We both agreed on the difference in sound between the two. I bought the one that sounded "warmer". Whether it was definitely the wood is hard impossible to say.
Mike
There, corrected that for you  ;D

Correct ..................

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Microbot

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2014, 11:03:11 PM »

Sitting in Rees Wesson's workshop I tried two identical Castagnari melodeons, one in cherry, the other in walnut. We both agreed on the difference in sound between the two. I bought the one that sounded "warmer". Whether it was definitely the wood is hard impossible to say.
Mike
There, corrected that for you  ;D

Correct ..................

No ... opinion!
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2014, 08:09:38 AM »

Again (and with recent engineering graduates rumoured to be making entire boxes!) I'd appeal for some experimental evidence. We always seem to discuss this sort of thing on "general principles".

I had to do accoustic theory to do medical ultrasound (in which it has virtually no "practical" use ;))  but the message was that everything resonates in some way, all resonances interact, and that simple looking things like "a liver" act as complex diffraction gratings. So it's all a bit empyrical. Which is why I'd quite like to see someone play the same reeds into decent microphone/oscilloscope/FFT based on identical blocks of different materials.

I suspect that the wood of the frame has less to do with it, as the energy is atmospheric by then. But my Gaillard can be felt to physically vibrate on low notes, the van der Aa doesn't.  :|glug
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John MacKenzie (Cugiok)

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2014, 09:30:09 AM »

This leads on to another thought. As a guitarist (allegedly) I know that different woods respond differently, and "sound" differently. I also know that a guitar 'plays in', some well, others not.
So apart from the obvious aspect of the bellows becoming more flexible after a bit of use, are there any other aspects to a melodeon, that equates to the playing in, that guitars go through?
Do they mellow? Or do they, like me, just grow old disgracefully?


John
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2014, 09:54:49 AM »

I'd see bellows being more about playability than tone, suspect accoustic effect may be tiny, but who knows?

The wood issue has been fairly well sorted with Stradivarius violins. All manner of theories as to "why",. First it was ascribed to varnish. Then some of my colleagues CT scanned Strads to try to prove the soundboard was thinned out more, or better, or more evenly (unlike our fondo the violin one is a major transmitter of vibration power.

Currently it's said to be about the mediaeval mini ice age, slow tree growth in the Alps, and demonstrably finer grained woods, with a different accoustic property. But who knows … I'd put money on some new theory emerging in a decade or so  :|glug
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 09:56:27 AM by Chris Ryall »
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IanD

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2014, 11:36:00 AM »

Sitting in Rees Wesson's workshop I tried two identical Castagnari melodeons, one in cherry, the other in walnut. We both agreed on the difference in sound between the two. I bought the one that sounded "warmer". Whether it was definitely the wood is hard impossible to say.
Mike
There, corrected that for you  ;D

Correct ..................

No ... opinion!

No ... given the evidence quoted (two melodeons), impossible  ;)

Yes we've been having this argument for ever, and in theory it could be proven one way or the other if anyone was willing to invest the time, money and expertise to do it -- but...

Strasser claim to have actually done this together with universities, and most (all?) people who understand materials science and instrument acoustics and  experimental bias agree with their conclusion that the wood itself makes no significant difference, or at least vastly less than other constructional differences which ought to be worried about because they affect the sound a lot.

It's pretty much the same position as climate change or solid silver mains cables for hi-fi; the vast majority of people who understand the issue or have actually investigated it agree, but there's a small but vociferous minority whose opinions -- not backed by facts, or flying in the face of them -- disagree ;-)

P.S. Bringing up guitars or violins (completely irrelevant!) when talking about this should fall under Godwin's Law :-)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 11:38:01 AM by IanD »
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IanD

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2014, 11:41:31 AM »

I'd see bellows being more about playability than tone, suspect accoustic effect may be tiny, but who knows?

The wood issue has been fairly well sorted with Stradivarius violins. All manner of theories as to "why",. First it was ascribed to varnish. Then some of my colleagues CT scanned Strads to try to prove the soundboard was thinned out more, or better, or more evenly (unlike our fondo the violin one is a major transmitter of vibration power.

Currently it's said to be about the mediaeval mini ice age, slow tree growth in the Alps, and demonstrably finer grained woods, with a different accoustic property. But who knows … I'd put money on some new theory emerging in a decade or so  :|glug

Not to mention the fact that in properly controlled double-blind tests by experts -- including musicians, instrument makers, music critics, expert listeners -- the Strads were comprehensively trounced by modern violins in all aspects. So much for the almost universally held Stradivarius myth that they sound incomparable...
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Roger Howard

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Re: Different woods
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2014, 01:23:02 PM »

So apart from the obvious aspect of the bellows becoming more flexible after a bit of use, are there any other aspects to a melodeon, that equates to the playing in, that guitars go through?
Do they mellow? Or do they, like me, just grow old disgracefully?

John

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure, but my impression is that reeds do "play in" over a period of time. Why or how, I've no idea.

Players of Northumbrian pipes believe that sets of pipes also "play in". There's a nice story about Jack Armstrong playing to demonstrate the pipes (I think to an American who was buying a set), and commenting at the end that,"Of course, this set is fairly well played in now." The set in question was over a hundred years old!

 ::)

Roger

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