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Author Topic: Irish press and draw style  (Read 15732 times)

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boxcall

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2014, 10:51:25 PM »

well I guess you would PRESS the bag to DRAW out some notes (:)
Just trying to keep this on topic and I,m not sure if the air sack is called a bag?
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Stiamh

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2014, 10:09:09 AM »

Then a few posts ago there was the hinting at the politics of the Irish style(s).

To understand the hints you'd have to have read Graeme Smith's paper. It has a lot of good stuff in it but he sets up a dichotomy between the espousal of the B/C style by working-class Irishmen and criticism of it by people from another layer of the social spectrum (e.g. Ó Riada). An issue of no interest to the average box player, I think, and not a very solid peg to hang preconceived notions about attitudes in any particular musical community on, even if you had understood the reference. (:)

richard.fleming

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2014, 11:33:29 AM »


I personally have always not been sure what I think of the B/C style as played, for example, by Joe Burke. He is obviously a giant in Irish music and a very fine player, but the amount and the predictability of the ornamentation, and the way many players who, (perhaps less so more recently),  reproduce it pretty well note for note, can seem too predictable or even a bit mechanical. Maybe the definition of an  Irish gentleman, to parody the old joke, is a button accordion player who knows how to stuff a tune with 5-note rolls but doesn't.
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Pat.

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2014, 11:48:20 AM »


I personally have always not been sure what I think of the B/C style as played, for example, by Joe Burke. He is obviously a giant in Irish music and a very fine player, but the amount and the predictability of the ornamentation, and the way many players who, (perhaps less so more recently),  reproduce it pretty well note for note, can seem too predictable or even a bit mechanical. Maybe the definition of an  Irish gentleman, to parody the old joke, is a button accordion player who knows how to stuff a tune with 5-note rolls but doesn't.
[/quote
     Well composed.]
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OrchardAshley90

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2014, 12:34:14 PM »

This is an interesting thread, but to me, isn't all music played on a diatonic box a 'press and draw' and not just Irish? from say a one row all the way through to a BCC#, they are all diatonic and got to press and draw to get the correct notes.

Having said that i can tell the difference between them while being played. after spending the last 3-4 years learning ITM from all kinds of different players. i usually prefer the style of a B/C player than a C#/D. Joe Burke is a very 'clean' player although mechanical he is the best one to learn a tune from if playing by ear, as well as Jimmy Shand both very clean in their playing.
But i don't really care much for jackie dalys style, don't get me wrong another fantastic player just don't like the style. but Joe Derrane a D/C# player has a good style very different to Jackie Daly.

I think a lot of this is down to the style of the individual and not the system, Although i play an A/D/G i try and play in the more 'Clean' style.
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richard.fleming

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2014, 12:49:43 PM »

It's just that the phrase 'press and draw' seems to have a particular meaning when used in the context of Irish traditional music, and it is this I'm trying to tease out.
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mory

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2014, 01:58:02 PM »

I've always felt it referred to the ornamentation aspect i.e. the available notes and methods .  A melodeon style of playing transferred to a C#D is the way I'd understood it when referring to Jackie and also on a BnC if playing in C up and down the row or on the B row (Rose Murphy style) exploiting and exploring the limitations, and developing alternatives to the musical choices.
All the Best mory
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boxer

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2014, 03:07:03 PM »

There are as many B/C playing styles as there are B/C players.  Style is a means to an end.  Everyone's arms hands and fingers work a bit differently.  Physical imitation of another player's style doesn't guarantee that you'll sound much like him or her.

"press and draw" sounds like a non-box player's attempt to describe playing tunes up and down a single row.
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Pat.

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2014, 03:54:52 PM »

Press and draw IS up and down the one row  no political conotations and is a well known term among Irish old style box players,I know because I have known a lot of them for over the last  thirty years.
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KLR

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2014, 08:35:08 PM »

In piping "tight" = staccato, "loose" = legato.  Box players are just adapting piping terminology, out of envy since buttons accordions can only be a pale imitation of the pipes.   ;)

I sometimes play with a B/C boxer, whose music is as choppy as all get out.  LMM Cardin he plays, even without the L going he's louder than hell, too.  Would that this system were some royal road to smooth playing, it just doesn't work that way.  You have to just keep working at it, if smooth is your ultimate goal anyway. 

You should keep in mind that the other musicians have no idea about these niggling little niceties, and in almost all cases aren't interested in them.  You could bring one of those 2 row Russian unisonoric mini bayans to a session and probably hear a chorus of "Hey, love the new box!"

Joe Burke is one of the greats, instantly recognizable, full of lift/heart.  Could listen to him all day, have never understood why he has any detractors, people are finicky, or jealous.  Would you rather he weren't around?
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richard.fleming

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2014, 07:45:40 AM »

There's still a lot of dismissiveness about, I think, Aradru. I was talking to a brilliant young Connemara B/C player not so long ago about getting a Csharp/D box and the reply was  'You might as well get a melodeon'.
I'm glad to get your reply. Pretty well sorts it out. All we need now is Triskel's take on it and we're done. I think.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 07:51:57 AM by richard.fleming »
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Stiamh

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2014, 01:50:08 PM »

The more I think about it, the more it seems obvious that the term "press and draw" could only have been coined (doubtless with the disparaging intent that aradru highlights) after the B/C became popular. Prior to that it was all press-and-draw (and still is, as Ashley said), so what would be the point of the term?

Regarding the political aspects, when I made my comments I hadn't realised that Graeme Smith had written another paper (the one Anahata linked to on Jstor). I was referring to the other one. I have now read the second one, which covers a lot of the same ground, but with less emphasis on the working-class / middle-class dichotomy. [Which I always thought was a bit artificial - you could hardly get more working-class than Joe Cooley (a builder, wasn't he?) and Jackie Daly (a pipe-fitter before he turned professional).] I also think that Graeme oversimplifies the resurgence of the new press-and-draw style. Anyone from outside the tradition reading the paper might assume that B/C has been sidelined by C#/D since the 1970s, which is hardly the case.

As a footnote, I'd say that the admiration of Joe Burke for Jackie Daly's playing is entirely reciprocated, from what I gather, and the two of them enjoy a long-standing tradition of mercilessly slagging each other off as a mark of their mutual affection.

Oh, and I have changed the spelling of my first name to avoid future confusion between Steves. An old joke I share with a friend's daughter called Niamh.  (:)

Pat.

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2014, 06:03:43 PM »

Well Aradru I, think your post summed it up pretty well
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Theo

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2014, 08:07:33 AM »

I mention this because I always felt that whether you choose to play 'press and draw' or B/C, has less to do with ability and talent
and more to do with character type.

Very interesting!   I think there is a parallel between people who choose to play a push/pull box of any type and those who choose a piano accordion.  The former tend to be happy go lucky, jump in and give it a go types, wheras the piano accordionist is much more likely to be a planner and a follower of a more formal learning path.
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2014, 08:29:42 AM »

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Theo.
 That certainly sums me up. ;D
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malcolmbebb

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2014, 08:55:20 AM »

I mention this because I always felt that whether you choose to play 'press and draw' or B/C, has less to do with ability and talent
and more to do with character type.

Very interesting!   I think there is a parallel between people who choose to play a push/pull box of any type and those who choose a piano accordion.  The former tend to be happy go lucky, jump in and give it a go types, wheras the piano accordionist is much more likely to be a planner and a follower of a more formal learning path.

Interesting - I was having a conversation and similar thoughts of players of Anglo vs English concertinas quite recently.
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Anahata

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2014, 09:39:47 AM »

Also PA player = music reader, melodeon = play by ear.

Not always, obviously, but that's the tendency.
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george garside

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2014, 09:54:15 AM »

and piano ( & continental) players ''improvise'' when they are feeling a bit naughty,  whereas  push/pull people  just play it 'on the hoof' the way they want it to sound!

george ;)
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gettabettabox

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2014, 11:07:30 AM »

Here is another angle.. not entirely unrelated to the OP I hope.
It's been a long-held belief of mine that a 'press and draw' player will have some distinct character traits.
As opposed to a B/C player that is.
I believe that a person displaying those traits is almost predestined to play C#/D system (given of course that they play box of any description).
I think it's possible to predict a person's character without having met them, just by knowing what system they play.
Your typical C#/D player will be contemplative, introvert, introspective, sensitive.
The music, or rather the individual piece or tune is at the centre of their focus and is more important than the peformance.
A B/C player is .. well, more outgoing? A more natural and comfortable performer?

I discussed this with Charlie Harris the other day (briefly, as we were too busy talking boxes. Charlie is a C#/D, D/D# player)
and I think he agreed with me. At least he didn't say that he disagreed!

I mention this because I always felt that whether you choose to play 'press and draw' or B/C, has less to do with ability and talent
and more to do with character type.




a great angle on things. 
meanwhile, those that have self-directed towards the ''push and draw'' style, probably did so in pursuit of that driving pulse? (the pulse that is difficult to define, yet you know it when you hear it.... and lucky you.. if you're able to generate it.)


how about the irish/American lads and their D/C+ boxes?...
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richard.fleming

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2014, 11:53:56 AM »

Aradru quote: 'I started playing B/C and I never had a difficulty with it. I still play that system fairly regularly.'

I started B/C because I bought a Double Ray in a Dublin pawn shop. I moved to Csharp/D because I thought it might help me to play a crisper more staccato style. I don't think either is more suited to my personality, though I agree that PA players may well be different from us.  I'm full of admiration for people like Aradru who can play both B/C and Csharp/D. I've switched back and forth a bit, and it seems to be either/or for me, though I'd like to play both, and have one of each here. ..
Any tips, please, on how someone who plays by ear can play both?
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