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Author Topic: Irish press and draw style  (Read 15733 times)

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george garside

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2014, 12:20:34 PM »

?play the same tunes on both  using same fingering.  G on bc = A on c#D , D = E , F = G etc.   

 learn scales on the BC  to the point where the fingering is automatic (cgdae)  I is then easy to play same  tunes in same key on either box      using  the appropriate scale.  This applies whether dot reading or playing by ear

george
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Stiamh

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2014, 12:54:29 PM »

Part of the C#/D personality profile, is there is such a thing, must be a willingness to swim against the tide, the still near-total dominance of the B/C system in Irish music. Taking up C#/D you need to accept that teachers, courses and tutor books/DVDs are more difficult to find, and be prepared to plough a lonelier furrow and teach yourself. D/C# even more so, I think, unless you are under the wing of an established player.

Should press-and-draw ever become dominant again, perhaps those with a maverick turn of mind will be drawn (haha) to the B 'n' C?

I have to say though that aradru's idea of character traits is a new one for me. When the yen for a box took me I borrowed a B/C and tried out both B/C and C#/D fingerings. I thought I made my choice based on logic and on how mapping the tunes out on the D row corresponded more closely with my mental map of the tunes based on decades of playing other instruments, where the D string of the fiddle or the bell note of the whistle act as natural reference points. Now I have to allow that the choice might have been dictated by being an awkward so-and-so.  :D

Maybe being one of the many who never really liked the accordion in Irish music until they heard Jackie D might have had something to do with it too!

waltzman

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2014, 01:29:26 PM »

Another interesting thing about these two tunings is that they are not really different 'systems' at all.  The differences in technique are entirely key dependent.  That is to say that if you play a C#/D in the key of E you could use precisely the same fingering and technique as playing in D on the B/C. Is that not the case?
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george garside

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2014, 01:37:48 PM »

indeed
g
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Stiamh

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2014, 02:50:58 PM »

That is to say that if you play a C#/D in the key of E you could use precisely the same fingering and technique as playing in D on the B/C. Is that not the case?

It is indeed. To appreciate the difference I think you need to try learning a few tunes in D on the B/C  (:)

TomB-R

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2014, 04:32:25 PM »

Have the best of both worlds in one tuning - D/D#  ;D

[edit] No, on second thoughts, don't. It's an awful system you wouldn't like it at all. Don't go looking for D/D# boxes on Ebay.  >:E
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 04:34:29 PM by TomB-R »
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boxcall

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2014, 05:07:11 PM »





how about the irish/American lads and their D/C+ boxes?...
I would think we have similar traits to the C/D# players, but we are on the outside looking in. (pun intended)
And when there's a fork in the road we don't take it, we bushwhack.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 09:56:15 PM by boxcall »
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Pat.

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2014, 08:36:05 PM »

Well I play B/C for the keys available ,and the ornaments you can express yourself with,but I also like the Push and draw style because of the rhythm/pulse ,so that is why I have a B/C and a D/G. I cannot find the perfect box  so this is the next best thing,what this all means as regard to my personality is anyones guess.  ;D
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mory

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2014, 09:21:03 PM »

Not sure Brendan would be cool you using his image without permission  ;) AtB mory
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KLR

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2014, 06:18:01 PM »

There are 3 excellent box players where I live, all Irish fellows, 1 C#/D and 2 B/C; one of the latter has the closest thing to a career with tours CDs etc so I guess he's the most "outgoing," but personality-wise he's much more reserved than the other two, really.  His playing is a lot more mo-dern as well. 

The C#/D player is more than a bit intimidating musically, and before he gave up drink he used to be a bit of a terror to be around on a bad night too, I always thought he scared people off the button accordion by dint of personality - he also used to be the publican in the only venues in town with a session going in the first place.  So these roles seem to be reversed around where I live, to an extent anyway.  But really there aren't too many box players period.
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sticky fingers

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2014, 08:25:38 PM »

Has nobody mentioned the D/G system in the Irish press and draw style? sf

rees

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2014, 08:54:16 PM »

Has nobody mentioned the D/G system in the Irish press and draw style? sf

a la Dave Mallinson and Jeff Bainbridge.
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gettabettabox

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2014, 01:58:02 AM »

The push and draw is to my understanding is one row  original style  and is not complicated with over ornamentation due to the limitations of the notes available ,but in skilled hands it has great rhythm and honesty about it.

this is my understanding as well.
the two row boxes (employing a D row in today's musical key sensitivities,) can mimic it, but also easily dilute it by playing across the rows and incorporating the extra basses.
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richard.fleming

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #53 on: October 03, 2014, 09:43:55 AM »

What Gettabettabox says above raises a question.
I can't play many of the tunes, even those in the key of D, on my Csharp/D, without playing across the rows to find notes on the Csharp row that are really important to the tune. If I were NOT to do this, as Gettabettabox seems to suggest, in order to replicate the press and draw style, I might as well play a D/G box.
I know one or two people who try to play Irish on the D/G box, I personally don't like the effect  much.
I prefer to describe the Csharp/D as being an instrument that is technically just as good as the B/C, that produces  music that is as good as that produced on the B/C and that gives the Irish button accordion tradition an interestingly wider range of sounds and styles. I can't see how trying to play on the D row is doing anything except limiting the instrument's and the player's potential.
If you want to do that, why not get a melodeon?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 09:57:24 AM by richard.fleming »
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Old Paolo Sopranis in C#/D and D/D#

mory

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2014, 09:50:08 AM »

That's what I was referring to here Richard
I've always felt it referred to the ornamentation aspect i.e. the available notes and methods .  A melodeon style of playing transferred to a C#D is the way I'd understood it when referring to Jackie and also on a BnC if playing in C up and down the row or on the B row (Rose Murphy style) exploiting and exploring the limitations, and developing alternatives to the musical choices.
All the Best mory

Have a listen to Johnny Connolly, John O'Halloran, Cuz Tehan and many others if you've not done so already. AtB mory
Notice you've altered your post but Johnny is a master at playing tunes with the missing notes replaced in numerous different ways.

Just reading through your earlier posts Richard. I guess it's always about choices, I know I've certainly been drawn here there and every where over the years. Picked up a BC (Paddy Clancy) again a while back simply because it was such a beautiful sounding and playing box but it's probably going to go again as it doesn't fill that place I've settled in C#D, DD#, DC#, D, C and Concertina (home is where the heart is I guess) AtB mory
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 10:19:50 AM by mory »
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smiley

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #55 on: October 04, 2014, 12:02:44 AM »

Has nobody mentioned the D/G system in the Irish press and draw style? sf

a la Dave Mallinson and Jeff Bainbridge.

Simon Melia played Irish tunes on the D/G but somehow it sounded 'smoother' that most 'press and draw' style box players that I've heard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj4Yb8RvebQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30iVm5U0gvg
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gettabettabox

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #56 on: October 04, 2014, 12:41:32 AM »

methinks ''stiamh'' on here knew this guy, so perhaps will elaborate upon his style?
but i recall, that this was a two voice pokerwork? and possibly swept along by the good company he was in?
sounds pretty punchy to me. I recall from stiamh's  post that he lifted tunes up from d to g, suggesting more of a 'row playing' style? (but not necessarily so.)
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Stiamh

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #57 on: October 04, 2014, 01:48:44 AM »

Ian (Smiley) has put his finger on an aspect that I almost posted about - that although the D/G can be played up and down either row, the reversals, if used to the full, ought (theoretically at least) to allow a smoother style with less pressing and drawing than even the B&C.

At the time I knew Simon I cared little for the technical aspects of boxes and the differences between systems. To me he was just a very exciting musician to play fiddle with. Someone who knows more about his approach, and I believe they worked on adapting D/G to Irish music together, is Geoff L (pushpullefty) but he hasn't looked in here for the past three years. The thing that amazes me at this distance, listening to Simon's playing now with some experience of playing box, is the extent and inventiveness of his variations. All this from a self-taught lad with no musical background who'd been at the box for only about 5 years when we first played together.

He did jack some tunes up a fourth, but not that many. Apart from Maid behind the Bar the only tune I can state with certainty that he did this on was Musical Priest, which sounded absolutely electric at a fast clip in high E minor instead of the usual B.

Edit: correction - he also jacked up Ask My Father from D to G. https://soundcloud.com/jonesbach/ask-my-father-green-grow-the
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 01:53:06 AM by Stiamh Jones »
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Pat.

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #58 on: October 04, 2014, 06:52:21 AM »

When a lot of people play  ITM on a D/G box it often sounds not very Irish,.I think if you play B/C or C#/D THEN play D/G it can work well ,the I think the trick is not to play it like a D/G style  treat it as a one row with extra base options but use the base purely for rhythm  not for clever effects.
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TomB-R

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #59 on: October 04, 2014, 09:31:14 AM »

If you're either in an Irish music community, family etc, or just decide you want to play the music on box what does everyone tell you to do? Get a B/C or C#/D. 

If you're in a different musical environment, there's a very good chance the advice will be in favour of a quint box, D/G in England etc.  Once you're a bit fluent on that, and go to mixed sessions, you may decide you "want to play a bit of Irish." So you play the notes on your D/G and you can keep up in your local session, but do you seriously rebuild your playing style?

Irish music enthusiasts are fond of saying it takes a couple of years of obsessive dedication to start playing the music properly.

There are hundreds of fiddlers out there, many with some classical background, who can knock out an Irish tune in a session, but they don't actually play the style.

Same with flute. If you want to play Irish flute, you get a simple system flute. There are loads of silver Boehm flute players (classical background) happily playing along in sessions. Joanie Madden is the one proof that the music can be played to a high level on Boehm flute.

It's not the instrument, it's the player, but the whole cultural environment, and the work involved, means that when people get serious, they want the version of the instrument that's within the tradition.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 09:37:46 AM by TomB-R »
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