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[Lester]

So I've been in Vienna for the weekend sightseeing with darling daughter who is on her grand European tour. It seems I have inadvertently purchased a G/C Corsa for little money from the weekly flea market. It is in really good nick but will need tuning. So, as this is the first three voice MMM box I've had in my workshop would it normally be tuned 0, +,  ++ or -, 0, + (viennese tuning)  and what would be the normal cents at A 440?

[george garside]

I   think the trichord 3 is something like  -21  0 +23

george

[Theo]

Definitely -/0/+ but it must be seriously out if tune if you can't tell from how it is now.  How much + and - you go for is a matter of personal preference.  I would go for a fair bit less that George suggests. 

[Lester]

Theo, I agree that I could find out empirically but I'm currently sat in Wien Flughaven and my flight is delayed 2 hours so thought I might kick off a discussion to use up my spare time :)

[Theo]

I'm currently sat in Wien Flughaven and my flight is delayed 2 hours

And you haven't a toolkit with you? 

[Sebastian]

It seems I have inadvertently purchased a G/C Corsa for little money from the weekly flea market.

Why do I never find a Corso on the weekly flea markets?

[baz parkes]

It seems I have inadvertently purchased a G/C Corsa for little money from the weekly flea market.

Why do I never find a Corso on the weekly flea markets?

same reason I never find that Jeffries Anglo...or a Lilliput..

[malcolmbebb]

It seems I have inadvertently purchased a G/C Corsa ...

Thought Corsas were made by GM?

[Rob2Hook]

Thought Corsas were made by GM?

Yes, and most of them tuned too rich! - or is that just a Blazingsmoke thing?

I can't give values in cents, that's far more your thing, Lester.  Would suggest you model it more on the genteel vibrato of a Club, especially as with MMM you get double the spread!  I'm presuming you don't have any switches/stops on this model, but if you had I guess you would have to switch the flattened reedbank, leaving the two voice configuration  with the common slightly sharp mix.

Rob.

[Steve_freereeder]

When tuning three sets of treble reeds M^-, M⁰ M⁺, it's best to keep the cents offsets asymmetrical; i.e. avoid tuning, for example, to -5, 0, +5, but instead tune to, say, -4, 0, +6.

The reason for avoiding symmetrical tuning is to minimise the possibility of phase reinforcements/cancellations between the M^- and M⁺ reeds which could produce an unpleasant extra-strong tremolo. This is less likely to occur with asymmetrical tuning.

When dealing with just two M reeds, the tremolo rate is simple to calculate: it is the difference between the absolute frequencies in Hertz of the two reeds concerned, i.e:
Tremolo rate (beats/sec) = f ^M1 - f ^M2

Also, the perceived pitch of the two reeds is the arithmetic mean of the two absolute frequencies:
f ^perceived = (f ^M1 + f ^M2)/2

However, with three M reeds, the situation becomes immediately more complex. You have to consider the three tremolo interactions between the pairs
(a) M^- and M⁰
(b) M⁰ and M⁺
(c) M^- and M⁺.

This is why the overall tremolo of M^-, M⁰ M⁺ reeds is extraordinarily rich and complex sounding. In practice I think it is difficult to calculate and predict what the overall sound is going to be and it's perhaps best to decide on a tuning regime, apply it and then use your ear to adjust anything which doesn't sound quite right or doesn't quite fit in with adjacent notes on the instrument. If you have access to a MMM instrument which you like the sound of, measure the cents offsets of a few of the reeds and use that as a model for your tuning project.   

[Theo]

When tuning three sets of treble reeds M^-, M⁰ M⁺, it's best to keep the cents offsets asymmetrical; i.e. avoid tuning, for example, to -5, 0, +5, but instead tune to, say, -4, 0, +6. 

"Best" is a bit of a loaded word there Steve.   It depends on the sound you want.   Some very experienced players who I have done tuning for have specified equal offsets because they prefer the sound.  It does make a difference though, equal offsets give a "cleaner" sound with a less complex mix of harmonics.

[Steve_freereeder]

When tuning three sets of treble reeds M^-, M⁰ M⁺, it's best to keep the cents offsets asymmetrical; i.e. avoid tuning, for example, to -5, 0, +5, but instead tune to, say, -4, 0, +6. 

"Best" is a bit of a loaded word there Steve.   It depends on the sound you want.   Some very experienced players who I have done tuning for have specified equal offsets because they prefer the sound.  It does make a difference though, equal offsets give a "cleaner" sound with a less complex mix of harmonics.

Fair comment, Theo. Tremolo is, as we've always said, very much an individual taste.

I guess that with a fairly wet tremolo, any phase effects due to equal offsets might be masked by the overall wetness. But with a slower tremolo, I would tend to err towards the asymmetric tuning to be more confident of avoiding any phase effects. Probably the asymmetry doesn't need to be much to accomplish this? I'm not sure - I'm definitely on the extreme limits of my experience here... 

[Steve_freereeder]

For Mike Rowbottom's take on MMM tuning have a look at this old post...

At first, he says he prefers equidistant symmetrical tuning, but later, for a specific project converting a Tommy to MMM, he went with asymmetrical tuning and the result, he said was a "truly fabulous, fabulous sound" 

[Lester]

Turns out it is tuned 0, +,  ++       -   so D4 is tuned 0, +20, +40.

[Steve_freereeder]

Turns out it is tuned 0, +,  ++       -   so D4 is tuned 0, +20, +40.

Wow! That's a sharp tuning. Without doing the calculations, I guess that would equate to A=442 or 443 perhaps?

[Graham Collicutt]

That is what I call torture!