Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Thrupenny Bit]

Hi All,
Been chewing this over......
At my last session I was the only box player. Bit unusual, normally a load of experienced players but as happens sometimes, they were all on hols or elsewhere. The rest comprised of several fiddles, a concertina ( learner ) , a couple of guitars, a prominent whistle player, a set of Northumbiran Half Long pipes ( lovely sound! ) and a tuba.
I was asked so started up  something so I started with 'Curly Headed Ploughboy' and off we went.....gathering speed until it was at a fair old lick.
Perhaps it's my lack of confidence, but I didn't try and hold it back, just went with it. Several tunes that night seemed to speed up. We normally don't do this, it tends to be reasonably steady, or at least 'whatever speed starts continues....'

It's got me thinking - does the instrument have an affect on the speed you play?

With melody instruments such as fiddle or whistle,  ornamentation is the only way to 'thicken' your sound and if played at slower speeds can sound ponderous. I remember when playing English concertina, I just played it as a melody only instrument, and remember some people commenting sometimes I'd be a touch brisk.
Wishing to 'thicken' my sound led me to melodeon, as with basses and chords on the left hand it enables us to compliment the melody and it can take up time within the tune, whereas a melody only instrument playing slowly can have a 'gappy' sound.
I know the mechanics of having 2 hands doing different things ( melody and bass/chord accomaniament ) might slow you down a bit, but experienced players cope.
At your sessions do your melody only players play briskly?
Q

[Chris Ryall]

      I'd say .. well yes, slightly, in that an awkward keyboard or fingering may slow one down a bit.

       But frankly the main speed regulator in session play lies between the ears, and up a bit 

Hate to bring testosterone into the mix, but IME very few speed merchants are women, and they do play the same instruments ..

[Thrupenny Bit]

I think the bit between the ears is exactly right!
I get frustrated cos speeding up means those little 'things' you put into your playing to make it sound better ( emphasis, grace notes etc ) get lost as all you're trying to is just get the tune out. It also leads into another whole discussion about the lack of any emphasis if you're whizzing along.

Possibly the lack of emphasis in playing is a more general thing. We went to another local session in the summer as a one off for us. You started a tune and off they went, again at a bit of a lick, but it meant nothing could be done to the tune except get the right notes in the right order. At this particular session I was up against 2-3 large piano accordians who did just that - get the tune out, dot perfect, but absolutely flat. Before I thread drift my own topic (!) I think lack of emphasis is just down to the player not instrument specific.
I'm more interested in whether the worry of leaving too big gaps in the tune, if melody only instrument, makes people speed up to 'fill in these gaps....... ' ?
Q

[richard.fleming]

I think you might find it helpful to consider that the bits between the notes are as important as the notes themselves.

[Thrupenny Bit]

absolutely Richard, my point being, others don't!
I find by squeezing or lengthening these bits and also the melody too you inject emphasis into what your'e playing. With a melodeon you have your left hand as well to help fill or prolong these if the melody pauses in some way. With a melody only instrument you just have a gap, which I get the feeling some players don't like leaving.
Q

[george garside]

 I would go further and suggest that the  bits between the notes are more important than the notes!.  Playing a 'wrong' note   particularly in a session  can go completely unnoticed  as the ear often hears what it expects to hear. 

On the other hand ''playing the gaps'' helps to give the tune rhythm, lilt, character, etcetc  as well as  making it easier to keep to a steady tempo
 
Those who want to go faster and faster  are often  doing little more than playing the right(ish) notes in the right(ish) order!  Tunes , particularly dance tunes tend to have a natural speed   and  sound better ( and are easier to play) at around the natural speed, maybe because  there is time to ''play the gaps''

george

[Stiamh]

Ugh, not that old zen new-age chestnut about the spaces between the notes again. 

To my mind, in folkdance music, there isn't any, to speak of, or that you could pay attention to anyway. (Unless you are playing extreme staccato, or I suppose the slow bits in some Morris tunes.) The issue is, I think, placement of the notes, and if the importance of that is what the space between-notes-cliché is intended to convey, I would agree entirely with the sentiment (though not the expression of it, in case that isn't clear from the above  ).

[Theo]

I don't think it's the instrument, it's more the skill of the players(s). A fiddle for example, in skilled hands is capable of creating a great rhythmic drive, even a solo instrument. 
I've been in sessions where the speed runs away, and it can be just one player who consistently hits important notes early.  Even if everyone else is "playing the gaps" it only takes one instrument to fill the gaps and create the rushed feeling that leads to a tendency to acceleration that is very hard to resist.

[Stiamh]

With melody instruments such as fiddle or whistle, ornamentation is the only way to 'thicken' your sound and if played at slower speeds can sound ponderous.

I think ponderousness comes from the inability to state the rhythm clearly. If you cannot play a tune slowly and have it sound good, you probably don't have a good handle on the pulse and the rhythm, and vice versa. Ornamentation, if it's working properly, will sound safe at any speed.

I don't often play in sessions with melodeon players, but I find that while pushing the tempo does come from melody players, sometimes it's accompanists who want the tunes to sound more "exciting" that are doing the nudging.

[Clive Williams]

I'm very aware that in my playing, ornamentation does cause speed up if I'm not paying attention. I wonder if it's the same for others?

[Thrupenny Bit]

I'm in total agreement George.
It also seems to be the opinion generally held by others on this forum when the topic of speed comes up, as it does fairly regularly.
I just wonder why speed is the goal for so many other players..... It doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Ahhhh more replies....
Stiamh - I think we're both saying the same thing, but I'm using cliches!

Theo - an interesting observation.
In the session I was originallyl referring to, a friend beside me has swapped Accordians for melodeon but doesn't use a left hand ( friends have tried to help )  She has a habit of hitting the note a split second early. It's really off putting to play nearby. I noticed on one favourite, a steady sedate tune, she'd be a phrase ahead. I hadn't realised how as little as one person can speed up a tune.
It makes sense.
Also, in this instance, how do you suggest to a friend, who is also a really nice person, that they speed up without insulting them? Difficult..... and who am I to dictate how anyone should play?
Q

[Thrupenny Bit]

'inability to state a rhythm clearly....'
I am beginning to wonder if some people are unable to hear a beat in any form.
I am thinking of a fellow who regularly attends who plays a piano accordian and his rhythym is a bit like a car kangarooing down the road when the clutch is let out badly! He attends some of our ceilidhs and, bless him, has absolutely no idea of any beat whatsoever in the music, even a simple step hop.
I'm sure we all have a varying degree of ability to define a rhythym, but most players are 'within tolerances', though some are without!
It explains a lot, and the lack of ability to stick to a constant beat.

Q

[Mike Carney]

I don't think it's the instrument, it's more the skill of the players(s). A fiddle for example, in skilled hands is capable of creating a great rhythmic drive, even a solo instrument. 
I've been in sessions where the speed runs away, and it can be just one player who consistently hits important notes early.  Even if everyone else is "playing the gaps" it only takes one instrument to fill the gaps and create the rushed feeling that leads to a tendency to acceleration that is very hard to resist.

And not only the skill of the players in playing, but in listening to the speed of the tune-starter or even being thoughtful about the other people in the session and listening while playing.
One of the things that often happens is that runs of quavers that a player (of any instrument) knows they can play, most often risks leading to speeding up, as they get to that point and think "I can do this bit.." and then just try to get through it rather than let the notes speak at their appointed intervals. I think the reason melodeon players might do it a little less is that the tune "bounces" a bit more against the sides of the music due to the push/pull, so encourages the spacing of notes, particularly when on one of the rows. (Can't think of any other way of describing it!)
Mike

[george garside]

could speeding up be something to do with foot tappers  -v - non foot tappers..   The majority of folk/trad musicians keep time with one or more foot/feet  and a glance round the room of a nice steady session is likely to reveal rows of feet tapping in sync which is a fair sign that all is well!  But it can be buggered up be a few loud fast non tappers!!

george

[Theo]

'inability to state a rhythm clearly....'
I am beginning to wonder if some people are unable to hear a beat in any form.

Before you can hear a beat you have be listening! At an early stage of playing most of us have to pay all our attention to our own playing to the extent that it is difficult to listen to the rest of the group and keep ones own playing going. It sounds as if your PA playing friend is at this stage.  Btw it's nothing to do with how long youve been playing, some can stay at this stage for a long longtime.

Also, in this instance, how do you suggest to a friend, who is also a really nice person, that they speed up without insulting them? Difficult.....

Rather you than me!

This really happened. At a great regular session here, which never speeds up, there is one chap who used to play spoons very badly. Always the same and *almost* in time.  People had spoken to him in private to ask him to not play on every tune, but he persisted.  Eventually several players got so frustrated whith his constant banging that they put their instruments down whenever he started, and finally he got the message. It was not pleasant.

[Thrupenny Bit]

Mike: yes 'grabbing' a handful of notes on a run is often a temptation ' cos I can do this bit' as you say. In fact I've done this myself at home going through tunes, but try to consciously slow those bits down.

George: Foot tappers is an interesting thing! I do it, as do several friends, but not all...... perhaps we should start a Foot Tapping Workshop 
Actually, that's not a bad idea 

Theo: Yes I know what you mean. I have a feeling our PA friend has been like it for a Very Long Time!
..... and I'll leave tackling my melodeon friend to others. There are other non-session options where it can be said more appropriately and kinder than me simply coming out with it.
Isn't it funny, every session seems to have one or two 'characters' 
Bless 'em....
Q

[arty]

Haha! There is a guy in my local session who plays percussion but he can only play 4/4. I don't know how he manages it but even when everyone else is playing a waltz, he still bangs away 4/4. No one has spoken to him ever, simply because he is such a nice bloke - we just tolerate his banging!

Reading through these posts, I just keep thinking - well, that's why an orchestra has a conductor!

[Nick Collis Bird]

And the conductor should be the drummer.?
Oh! Dear.

[Graham Spencer]

Generally I find the foot tappers are fine - it's the foot stampers you need to watch out for......

[Ollie]

I don't necessarily mind people who speed up a little, as it can be reasonably easy to slow things back down without pointing fingers. However, what really, really annoys me is when people play with absolutely no sense of rhythm. Not only does it make it difficult to play along, but they also end up murdering wonderful tunes!