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Author Topic: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?  (Read 6919 times)

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george garside

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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2014, 07:31:02 PM »

definitely agree with need for workshops to put emphasis on  technique including phrasing, dynamics etc etc  but not 100% sure about  the merits of  sending the dots out to participants beforehand  as there are many byearists  in the folk world to whom they would not be a lot of use. 

I  have tried to get round this     in my intermediate workshops to some degree by  using well known tunes  and working on how to play them better.     i.e. by using well known tunes to as vehicles  to learn techiques   that can  later be used on other tunes

 I would probably help by earists if  as well as  pre workshop  dots   a youtube video of   tunes  is provided.

george
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2014, 07:45:11 PM »

Graham: Surely polka's are a reasonably recent innovation of 1800's?
Some fairly common tunes go a long way back. JK's poularised the Charming Maid which is 13C.
Maybe it's the clod hopping peasant in me that goes for a basic step  ;)

Chris: some interesting thoughts here too. I think you're right in being able to detach yourself from your playing and get an overall feel for what's happening. I think that comes from experieence and being of a certain standard and confidence in your ability. I'm maybe only just getting there. I do remember at my session that triggered this, a couple of lead people were looking at me. I  think I need to be more asertive, and feel I'm just about able to be asertive now!

arty:  there are often ego's but to be fair not where I go. It's pretty much my only outlet for playing so I tend to take it as it comes. Generally the core people are all old friends so we tend to be supportive. I think the other night a lot were on holiday and it got a bit out of hand.... yes at times it's a bit mob handed but at times the sound is absolutely wonderful, so I go in the hope!

butimba and Bob: My comment about workshops was  my ( feeble ) attempt at humour, and not a serious comment.
As you both say, for those of a reasonable ability, they should be more directed at style and interpretation.

Ahhhh as I type George has joined in, and yes, it looks like we're in agreement!
Great. I need a cuppa!
Q
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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2014, 09:20:17 AM »

definitely agree with need for workshops to put emphasis on  technique including phrasing, dynamics etc etc  but not 100% sure about  the merits of  sending the dots out to participants beforehand  as there are many byearists  in the folk world to whom they would not be a lot of use. 

I  have tried to get round this     in my intermediate workshops to some degree by  using well known tunes  and working on how to play them better.     i.e. by using well known tunes to as vehicles  to learn techiques   that can  later be used on other tunes

 I would probably help by earists if  as well as  pre workshop  dots   a youtube video of   tunes  is provided.

george

I agree, George, with your point about posting a YouTube video as well as sending out the dots in advance of a workshop so that people who don't read music can familiarise themselves with the tune before the workshop. I would add that I also provide sheet music for everybody during the workshop because it is useful for making notes about ornamentation, interpretation, style etc.  :neigh:

Having been heavily involved with education theory during my working life, I am well aware that people only retain a small amount of what they are told in workshops, but that they will retain much more if they take notes (no pun intended). Consequently, I have begun recently to add bar numbers to my sheet music so that people who don't read music well can easily find the appropriate place to write a particular comment on how to play that bar. I am thinking of going further in my next workshop and providing sheet music with the annotation already included so that students have some useful reminders to take away with them, but are not distracted from the lesson by the need to make notes.

Sorry if this has drifted off the topic.
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Stiamh

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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2014, 12:36:47 PM »

how on earth do you get everyone to understand - or at least have a good idea - of what the tune is about rather than a string of musical dots ( and pauses  ::) )?

Workshops have their place, but to my mind there's no substitute for regular, long-term, attentive listening to recordings of good players, and of course good players in the flesh. You have to internalize the conventions, learn the lingo. In Irish music anyway, it's pretty well impossible get to a good standard (esp. if you are brought up outside the tradition) unless you become somewhat obsessive about it - what I call becoming a True Believer (:). I'd think the same would apply in English music too. Sadly most people devote far too little time to listening, really listening - and probably too little time to practising too!

Graham Spencer

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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2014, 02:45:56 PM »

Graham: Surely polka's are a reasonably recent innovation of 1800's?
Some fairly common tunes go a long way back. JK's poularised the Charming Maid which is 13C.
Maybe it's the clod hopping peasant in me that goes for a basic step  ;)


Well, by that name and in the ballroom sense, yes, of course you're right; but the double-step (which is in effect a polka by any other name) goes back at least as far as mediaeval dance notations and still, to my mind anyway, fits the laid-back English style far more comfortably than any single step ever could. The exception is probably in the compound-time hornpipe (eg Navvie on The Line) where a single-step does complement the tune as to the manner born.

Cheers
Graham
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Theo

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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2014, 03:14:20 PM »

Spot on Stiamh!  Lots of practice and at least as much time spent listening to the good stuff.
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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2014, 08:33:31 PM »

Yes, Theo beat me to it, totally agree.
It also serves to remind me I need to listen more!
Q
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2014, 07:24:43 AM »

A younger Andy Cutting once confided to me that he'd put on an admired (cassette in those days?) in the (van in those days) and listen to it again and again and again, all the way to a distant gig. So the method seems to produce results?  :|glug
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Helena Handcart

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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2014, 08:34:40 AM »

Yes, Theo beat me to it, totally agree.
It also serves to remind me I need to listen more!
Q

Possibly slight thread drift (sorry chaps) but I seem to have got to a place where listening has become perhaps the greater part of learning. If I've got a tune or a set of tunes to learn then I seek out a version of each tune I admire and combine them into a playlist and play it over and over again in the car and the office.  By the time I come to actually focus on learning to play the tune I generally find half of it is already magically under my fingers.

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george garside

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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2014, 08:44:26 AM »

its a two part process   

1. learning to listen

2. Listening to learn

george ;)
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malcolmbebb

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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #50 on: October 30, 2014, 06:21:09 PM »


Possibly slight thread drift (sorry chaps) but I seem to have got to a place where listening has become perhaps the greater part of learning. If I've got a tune or a set of tunes to learn then I seek out a version of each tune I admire and combine them into a playlist and play it over and over again in the car and the office.  By the time I come to actually focus on learning to play the tune I generally find half of it is already magically under my fingers.
Pretty much what I like to do. But not yet half. And, on topic, get the speed in my head.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #51 on: October 30, 2014, 10:32:40 PM »

I've just had this thing about listening proved to myself yet again this week.
I've heard a tune time and again and finally got round to looking at it in between some concentrated effort on learning some tunes. I opened Nick Barber's book and played it through a couple of times and then got back to the tunes I'm currently learning.
Again later I played it through a couple more times and then in an absent minded moment, started to play the new tune, almost perfect! Just goes to prove that by listening time and again it was 'there' in my head, I just needed to polish it by looking at the dots.

I do like George's quote " Learn to listen then Listen to learn...."
Spot on!
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

pikey

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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2014, 02:24:00 PM »

Simple answer to the question posed at the top of this thread....

Yes !

I borrowed a Castagnari Mory last night for a couple of tunes. The action was so fast, and the reeds so responsive, I decided to play an Irish reel at a very fast speed that I had never dared attempt before.

I was then amazed how my fingers could keep up with my brain  (:)

So instrument choice does affect the speed.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2014, 04:50:54 PM »

That's another good point. I wasn't thinking in those terms of variation between melodeons, but of course it does have an effect. Anyone who's gone around the music stalls at festivals knows there are some boxes that tempt you into doing things that you'd normally struggle with whereas others might look good but are not so inspiring to play.
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

george garside

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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2014, 05:06:19 PM »

its also to do with how the reeds are set up. eg A properly fettled pokerwork  has a much faster response than a factory fresh one  and is therefore easer to play fast tunes one.   On a non fettled one you can get the of the feeling that you are trying to get ahead of the reeds so to speak

george
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Graham Spencer

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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2014, 06:49:57 PM »

its also to do with how the reeds are set up. eg A properly fettled pokerwork  has a much faster response than a factory fresh one  and is therefore easer to play fast tunes one.   On a non fettled one you can get the of the feeling that you are trying to get ahead of the reeds so to speak

george

I think you have something there, George; I'm constantly amazed by the response speed of my 1930s 2915 (black lacquer, pre-pokerwork), which I now find I'm playing more & more in preference to my usual Saltarelle; it's much lighter, it speaks instantly on a whiff of wind, and it sounds glorious. I don't know how much of that speed is down to ageing and decades of "playing in" and how much is due to beginner's luck, this box having been my first restoration project. Either way up, a good Hohner takes some beating in the response stakes.

Graham
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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2014, 09:23:38 PM »

Picking up The points from Helena and Chris, once I grasped the basics of the box I found I could play most tunes as long as I learnt them in my head first. The secret is to learn by practice the basics and the patterns of where the fingers go off certain musical phrases. That's true for any instrument that you learn.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2014, 07:51:15 AM »

update:
I started this post following my monthly session, and I was concerned about speed as dictated by different instruments, as has been well discussed during this thread.
Last night was the 'next' monthly session, and it was brilliant - steady playing, nice mix of instruments and a joy to play in.
On my way home I was wondering what had changed from one month to the next.
The main difference was that there were more of the 'usual crowd' turning up and I think more significantly, a couple of fiddlers and a PA/concertina player who are very competent players who know how they want to play a tune, set a good speed and stick to it. They are not speed merchants.
It brought to mind Theo's comments previously that just one person can push speed up during a session.

I'd also worked on my playing during the interim, and was prepared to start a few tunes, but determined to keep it at my pace. In the end, it wasn't necessary, but had made me concentrate on getting a few tunes out, which I did, including a first airing of a couple of tunes which I'd been wanting to start but hadn't quite plucked up sufficient courage, so a good night for me personally!

Thanks for all the thoughts put into this thread, it has made me think about what goes on at a session. It has also proved the significance of how just one person pushing the speed up can be hugely significant.
Q
ps..... not sure how many people get to your session, but we had 26 players out, and I know of a further 4-5 who normally make it but couldn't for whatever reason. It was a great mix of instruments, even had a double bass which must have helped keep a constant speed.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Mike Carney

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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2014, 08:51:56 AM »

update:
I'd also worked on my playing during the interim, and was prepared to start a few tunes, but determined to keep it at my pace....
ps..... not sure how but we had 26 players out, and I know of a further 4-5 who normally make it but couldn't for whatever reason. It was a great mix of instruments, even had a double bass which must have helped keep a constant speed.
That's a big session in my book! I go to ones that vary from 4 or 5 to say 12. I do agree that preparation is important, including thinking about what tunes you have that are " starters". But not to the point of winding yourself up on much so that it becomes counterproductive.
M
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george garside

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Re: Does instrument choice affect speed of playing tunes?
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2014, 10:06:50 AM »

It can be useful to roughly divide your (ever developing) repertoire into two catagories:

1.'' Sunday Best'    A relatively small number of tunes that are well    practiced  and that you can confidently  solo   front of others  and which you can therefore  start in a session   without getting knickers in a twist !

2.  ''The Rest''   anything not in sunday best category eg tunes you can play in whole or in part  in a session with others leading, tunes that are 'work in progress'',   tunes that you are developing to sunday best standard etc

over a period of time  some tunes  may well drop out  of 'sunday best' due to not being played much  whilst others will   become ready to replace them.


george
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