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[Graham Spencer]

Or for the incurably hyperpedantic, 33.3333% recurring..........

[The Blues Viking]

There's a gizmo that I've seen trumpet players use; an arrangement of four spring-loaded plungers that can be held in one hand and used to exercise the fingers. I have no idea what it's called, or where to buy one; perhaps somewhere that sells brass instruments can help.

Failing that, squeezing a rubber ball should help.

TBV

Gripmaster

Yes, that's the thing I was talking about.

TBV

[The Blues Viking]

An interesting paradox:

Going from four fingers to three decreases your fingering capacity by 25%, while going from three fingers to four increases your fingering capacity by 33.3 (recurring) %.

I hate math.

TBV

[Stiamh]

And going from four to three increases your speed and accuracy by 200%

[Martin P]

Which is why in retail business it is better to offer "2 for 1 ".rather than 1/2 price on 1.

BTW, correct English is Maths or Mathematics. Math is not a word.

[Lester]

BTW, correct English is Maths or Mathematics. Math is not a word.

But where TBV comes from, correct American English is Math. Maths is not a word in America.

[The Blues Viking]

BTW, correct English is Maths or Mathematics. Math is not a word.

But where TBV comes from, correct American English is Math. Maths is not a word in America.

Whatever you want to call it...I hate it!

TBV

[malcolmbebb]

An interesting paradox:

Going from four fingers to three decreases your fingering capacity by 25%, while going from three fingers to four increases your fingering capacity by 33.3 (recurring) %.

It's just a rule of thumb, really.

[KLR]

For the sake of the original poster who is probably baffled by all this I'll step in and point out that whether using 3 or 4 fingers on the right hand is a topic which has been hashed out in innumerable threads here over the years, the biggest one was 3 fingers or 4? 

The conclusion I've reached is that using fewer fingers on purpose is invaluable if you play music which is busy/fast paced, such as Irish, which myself and Stiamh play.  My playing was a real mess until I gave up on using the little finger, and also the middle if at all possible.  It still isn't anything to write home about but hey.  Stiamh made the change after Jackie Daly insisted he do so, and Jackie's one of the best there is, most of his peers appear to be deliberately using a minimum of fingers too.  You need to be able to walk up and down the fingerboard to play that music, no two ways around it, and additional fingers just get in the way.

This perhaps doesn't apply to music whose melody isn't rushing around all the time, such as the English music played by most of the people on this board.

Of course George here plays Scottish music which can also be in an awful hurry, and he says he uses the little finger all the time too.  Maybe the choice of instrument helps there - George, do you play Scottish stuff on the D/G?  Or is that reserved for the BCC#?  And, when you're playing the highest note of a fast melody with your little finger and the melody is headed higher, what do you do?  Also, do you constantly use that C# row?  Perhaps having that on tap can get you out of fingering traffic jams, whereas with a 2 row you have to have the fingers dance around more. 

[Stiamh]

Stiamh made the change after Jackie Daly insisted he do so.

Correction - it was Noel Scott. One of the first questions I asked Jackie when I joined a class of his subsequently was, do you use your r-h little finger? Of course I do, he said. And indeed he does - but very rarely.

[george garside]

I play Scottish music on both DG and BCC# and also on 1 row

if playing a high note with little finger and going higher just move hand up or move whole hand up so little finger is available for the even higher note so to speak. It all depends on the tune and taking into account where  you are coming from and where you are going!

As to C# row  it depends very much on the tune.  Some    work best on BC rows, some are greatly facilitated by using C# row as well and others  are helped by just using the odd note on the inside row.

The third row makes the the BCC# much easier to play than the BC for many tunes and increases the available right hand chords.     There is also the considerable advantage of  easy access to the 'flat' keys  without extra learning - 12 keys for the price of 5!

george

[Matt (Kings Norton)]

using fewer fingers on purpose is invaluable if you play music which is busy/fast paced... additional fingers just get in the way

I found this a very interesting post KLR, what I am wondering is, if that is the case, why is that?  I wouldn't dream of arguing with you and still less with Jackie Daly, I'm just wondering why it is.  Before ever touching a diatonic I learnt chromatic button accordion.  The distances involved are obviously bigger than on a semitone box - but not that much - and it very often gets played fast.  There are thousands of different approaches to CBA fingering but I don't think I've heard the "less is more" view applied to that instrument.  There is a CBA player sitting next to me now who uses fewer fingers than anyone else I've seen, but not as a matter of principle.  What I learnt was a similar approach to the one that George describes. 

Now I am a terrible diatonic player but I do play some fast Italian music.  Because of the CBA background and because the music uses the highest notes a lot I automatically used my little finger (and thumb occasionally).  But most Italians play this stuff with 3 fingers and Mike Hirst of this forum has written some very interesting posts about how he learnt 2 finger playing from organetto players in Abruzzo.  So what I'm wondering is are there just different approaches to fingering fast music and you can take your pick, or is there a musical reason - does the sound different according to how you finger it?

[KLR]

Thanks for explaining that, George.  I'm not much of a piano player but on that instrument to play chords I find myself locking the fingers into shapes and moving around the whole hand, much like you're describing.  I'd do the same on the button accordion if would only work!  That, and I don't play chordal music on it at all in the first place.

Regarding the CBA:  In his book Friederich Lips does mention old school bayan players who didn't bother with the thumb, and how they could play at dizzying speeds anyway.  Forget if he had anything to say about the physiology of using X number of fingers for navigation. 

I'd guess that there's just something about the index and middle that lets them cross over each other more readily than the other digits.  I should mention that I'm often throwing in the ring and little fingers where there just isn't any other option, but as soon as that's over I'm back to getting around with 1 + 2.  Why this works so much better I'd like to know, too.  Interesting that it's a phenomenon found in various folk genres, too.  I wonder if isn't a matter of personal physiology, too.  It's something everyone should take a crack at, if they're having trouble playing up to speed.

[TomBom]

It's something everyone should take a crack at, if they're having trouble playing up to speed.

I have trouble playing fast on a one row. Let's see whether using less fingers helps. I'll try it.

[Stiamh]

So what I'm wondering is are there just different approaches to fingering fast music and you can take your pick, or is there a musical reason - does the sound different according to how you finger it?

A button doesn't care what finger you press it with, and if you press it with equal force and speed, I don't see how the resulting note could sound different. So on the face of it, you choose a fingering approach for physiological reasons. But if a given approach improves your playing in terms of speed, accuracy, and confidence, I'd say that was a musical reason to adopt it!

[Steve C.]

I think it was from a DTN video that I learnt the 3-finger roll.
Heretofor I had been perfectly happily with 1-finger triplets.
Now I can't imagine doing it otherwise…
Somehow the rolling action, besides being faster, sets up one's hand for the next notes…
(BTW--who knew Lester had a command of American in addition to his other talents…)

[Pat.]

 I play B/C and I use four fingers,and the music dose not suffer at all.

[Matt (Kings Norton)]

if a given approach improves your playing in terms of speed, accuracy, and confidence, I'd say that was a musical reason to adopt it!

That does make a lot of sense.  What I was trying to reconcile in my own head was that I am hearing two approaches that both sound logical and are both backed up by the example of great players.   I was just thinking about your and KLR's replies and I reckon it makes sense for me to look at players I admire and think about trying to do what they do.

[Mike Carney]

BTW, correct English is Maths or Mathematics. Math is not a word.

Our friend may be using American English in which set of dialects it is correct.
Mike
 

[Graham Spencer]

BTW, correct English is Maths or Mathematics. Math is not a word.

Our friend may be using American English in which language it is correct.
Mike
 

At the risk of being labelled (note spelling!) a pedant, American English isn't a language - it's a set of dialects. See, once a teacher of English, always a teacher of English........

Graham