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Author Topic: when should you call yourself an instrument player?  (Read 7431 times)

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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2014, 06:01:08 PM »

NO! I AM SPARTACUS  8)
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Microbot

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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2014, 10:41:51 PM »

NO! I AM SPARTACUS  8)

This is why I just love melnet!!!  ... come along boys, you can take turns at being Spartacus!

My comment ... I'd go with Squeezy ... there is this inner 'thing' that makes you a genuine musician. It's taken years to come out in me... before that I was just trying to 'get proficient', or copy other players' styles....

By contrast I had the pleasure of meeting 'Arty' a couple of years ago ... he was a complete beginner to the melodeon and bought a very nice C/F pre-pokerwork from me. He then took me and Elli to lunch in town. What a lovely man.

Only 2 years later and I can't tell you the pleasure it gives me to hear the recordings David (Arty) is making. Check this out ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o04Z-IW_tjU&list=UUgmtRlQtNZvMIEgqi2QN4Yg

It took me 30 years to get anywhere, but he is a delightful musician already ... but then, his Melnet 'Handle' of Arty tells you something about him and his 'day job'.

...cheers to style and taste ... and the technical proficieny to carry it off! And I DEFINITELY include Morris playing within that... its got a lift and swagger all of its own and you have to understand it ...   

Microbot.

 
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arty

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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2014, 11:00:25 PM »

 :|bl :|bl :|bl
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Chris Ryall

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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2014, 05:20:42 AM »

Good explanation from Squeezy.  I separate musicianship from being a musician ! I too know some players and singers who are technically proficient and can play/sing every note perfectly exactly as written, but who IMHO do not have any musicianship , which is all about timing, mood, volumetrics , pace, etc ie making the tune/song live.

Yes, development of emotionality, sensitive timing, was what I was trying to get at too. But I do think hours of practice has much to do with this; that's one area where the professional has a real edge?

Certainly it isn't "about" a precise though unmodulated rendition of the dots, ABC or even some memorised/practiced Miles Davis solo .. whatever. I was alluding to this when I argued against a simplistic "right notes in right order" approach in our present Castagnari thread.  If it were - surely an automaton would have "musicianship"? From pianola, barrel organ, to that (IMHO ghastly) computerised "beat box" Mr Cutting once lugged round Britain in the 90's - that's not the case. It sort of exemplified to me that .. while Andy might seem to have mathematically perfect rhythm against his then partner Nigel Eaton, there was a lot more going on.

To say with thread title, I think "musicianship" does come in some way before this level, but it's something to aspire to?

Quote
Maria Callas is a great example of amazing musicianship, technically not perfect, but she can move you to tears.

You are getting there, Pikey ;)

« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 05:22:46 AM by Chris Ryall »
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Bob Ellis

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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2014, 11:06:11 AM »

[quote author=pikey link=topic=15754.msg193845#msg193845 date=1415365161

Maria Callas is a great example of amazing musicianship, technically not perfect, but she can move you to tears.
[/quote]

I didn't know she played the melodeon organetto.   ::)
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pikey

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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2014, 11:46:02 PM »

Chris, ref professionals and practice, practice is essential to building technical capability, but timing and empathy either come naturally or they are not there. Yes, if you have natural talent practice, and especially listening, can improve it. But if it's not there, you can't make it happen.

Mel Brooks had a great saying about actors. You can't tell that a great actor is acting. Same with musicians. You can always tell someone who is trying to force timing and effect.
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Grape Ape

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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2014, 02:29:14 AM »

To me "an instrument player" is anyone who plays an instrument, regardless of talent level.  "Musician" I think, imlplies vocation, or at least a level of professionalism.
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Grape Ape

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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2014, 03:35:30 AM »

Another thought: is not the violinist in the orchestre who plays technically perfect but without feeling or emotion and therefore perhaps never given the solo, still a musician?
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A.J. Walker

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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2014, 04:02:00 AM »

But no, really, I AM SPARTACUS!!! (trust me)
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2014, 07:41:30 AM »

Ergo, we all must be SPARTACII  :(
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Anahata

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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2014, 02:58:47 PM »

Another thought: is not the violinist in the orchestre who plays technically perfect but without feeling or emotion and therefore perhaps never given the solo, still a musician?

Of course. All orchestras sound different; they are not machines. There is a particular skill too, in sensing and responding to a conductor's wishes, so you can translate someone else's feeling/emotion, not your own, into your own playing.

Many orchestral musicians play other kinds of music if they get the chance. Chamber music is much more fun because you are in charge of the music for your own part, and the musicianship is about responding to how the others are playing as well as contributing your own ideas.
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Colombia20102018

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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2014, 02:26:31 AM »

Thanks to All for sharing your opinion and knowledge with me.
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The Blues Viking

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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2014, 09:39:43 AM »

To me "an instrument player" is anyone who plays an instrument, regardless of talent level.  "Musician" I think, imlplies vocation, or at least a level of professionalism.

I realize that I'm coming to this discussion a bit late, but I felt like offering an opinion if anyone wants it, or even if no one does.

I agree with what Grape Ape says with regard to "instrument player"; but not with regard to "musician".

You can call yourself an instrument player when you play an instrument. How well you play, how long you've played or how artistically you play are entirely irrelevant. Similarly, you can call yourself a musician when you play music, skill or accomplishment notwithstanding.

Many years ago, I was involved in a similar discussion on the old rec.music.makers.squeezebox newsgroup, regarding when a musician could call him/herself a "professional". One person expressed the opinion that you could only call yourself a professional if you received at least 51% of your income from performing or recording; his justification for this position was that that was how the IRS (the people in the US who tax your income) defined "professional" so that was an end to it. Posting dictionary definitions did nothing to dislodge him from this position, nor did any rational argument. The IRS said so, and that was that.

I'm not saying that this discussion on melnet is like that (R.M.M.S was an awfully contentious place) but it points out the fallacy of rigidly defining terms such as "musician" or "instrumentalist" when such artistic terms, by their very nature, defy such rigidity.

I'll shut up now.

TBV
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Chris Ryall

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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2014, 11:56:31 AM »

.

  Not that bad a definition surely, if you manage to survive on it?

   Implicit is that real people are willing to pay for what you play ... :|glug
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Rob2Hook

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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2014, 12:42:32 PM »

Yes, but there are buskers who probably make 90% of their income from slaughtering an innocent PA (now that's a contentious concept) but most pay in the hope he'll reach his required income and go away - he probably won't declare a penny to the IRS!  Professionalism has little to do with musicianship, although most professionals (in the sense it's usually used) are consumate musicians.

I know many players who make a few quid from time to time and they vary from souless replicators of the written manuscript to truly natural musicians who can get into your soul and keep you listening for hours.  Sadly, the latter category are not usually playing dance music although when played well it has a great joie de vivre.  I play dance music, so I'll never achieve greatness but I do consider myself a musician, in a limited sense.

Rob
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boxdancer

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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2014, 08:29:02 PM »

Fundamentally, an instrument player plays an instrument.  Basic description.  However, a musician is surely someone who has a certain command of an instrument.  If you're not in control, you're probably not a musician.  Playing an instrument is one thing.  Playing it musically, another.  Better not to call yourself a musician until you are. Until then, possibly 'I play the melodeon' is a perfectly reasonable, respectable (and safer!) description.  If self-perception doesn't mislead you, one day you'll know when you've become a musician.  It's usually when you don't need to say you are. Main thing...enjoy it...some musicians don't - they just play.
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Rog

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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #56 on: November 26, 2014, 09:12:27 AM »

I'm not sure about what does/ doesn't constitute a musician, but for me there is a big difference between playing an instrument (if you are an instrumentalist) and performing, esp if you perform alone or with one or two others, in front of 20 or more (say) people.  If you are a lone box player for a Morris side, not only do you have to worry about not looking an idiot in front of strangers, but you also have to keep the dancers happy too (:)
I'm never going to earn a living as a performer, but a few years ago the thought of performing in front of a hundred people would have reduced me to a quivering heap of nerves. But this is what folk clubs are for... They gave me the opportunity to 'have a go' at playing, and no one minds if you mess up (not too much anyway). I've also found that what you can play proficiently and with eloquence in private, rarely comes out that way in public, so one gives a sub optimal performance, until you really know your way around a tune. So it takes several goes in public before you get the tune to a point where you are. (Sort of) happy with it.
Professional performers know all this stuff and work out how to deal with it. One of the most useful bits of advice i got (from a piano teacher) was to record yourself and listen critically, so you can hear which bits do and don't work, where you speed up etc etc. And of course, that's where TOTM comes in...

Nick Collis Bird

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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #57 on: November 26, 2014, 09:37:11 AM »

Wot he said. :D
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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #58 on: November 26, 2014, 12:14:26 PM »

Yes, I am very much in this zone at present (the Morris bit). A couple of new tunes, which I can play at home easily. First airing (me leading) last night, about 90% right with a few fumbles and one or two bars just vanished from my head....

The saving grace was that I knew the tune well enough to come back in fairly quickly.
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Re: when should you call yourself an instrument player?
« Reply #59 on: November 26, 2014, 01:38:55 PM »

I've always thought of musicians and musicianship as a pyramid - those people on the top wouldn't be up so high if it weren't for those below.
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