Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Finger slap  (Read 2608 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Stiamh - away for the summer

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3118
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Finger slap
« on: October 31, 2014, 01:37:25 PM »

This sentence from GPS, lifted from the recent "fingers off" thread, inspired me to examine my own playing (thanks Graham):

I've seen SO many players who lift their fingers WAY clear of the buttons, with the results that (a) they need to expend an inordinate amount of energy to get the finger back down for the next note and (b) the consequence of that is that they hit the next note really hard and any semblance of subtlety is out of the window.

I've long been conscious that my right-hand fingers make a lot of noise on the buttons, which I have been putting down to my recent propensity to play mainly old Hohners. In fact I have been a bit self-conscious about it ever since Mike R, on hearing a recording of me, commented that I hit the buttons like Ginger Baker hits his tom-toms ;)

Examining what was going on this morning I saw that my middle and ring fingers stay close to the buttons and make practically no noise, but that the index lifts much higher and in fact all the clatter comes from that finger, especially when playing at snappy tempos. It's got me wondering whether I can re-educate it, or whether the fact that I tend to lead with my index, which seems to be very much the boss of the (three-man) band, has anything to do with it.

Anybody else notice anything similar, or have any wisdom or advice to share?
Logged
Taking a wee break
Senior member at meoldone.net
www.rogermillington.com

pikey

  • Addicted to squeezeboxes since 1975
  • Thread mod
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3303
  • If it moves, I'll squeeze it....
Re: Finger slap
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2014, 01:42:28 PM »

Yes, dont worry about it ! I do pretty similar, the percussion adds to the music
Logged
Still squeezing after all these years.
Mostly on hohners , with a couple of Dinos and a smattering of anglos - and now a Jeffries duet

Clive Williams

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3003
    • Home Page
Re: Finger slap
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2014, 02:07:24 PM »

... I have heard it described as a *good* thing; saying some continental players deliberately lift fingers high, and combined with high bellows pressure achieve a 'snappier' less mushy sound. Goes to show that one mans poison is another mans oreo...

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 5005
Re: Finger slap
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2014, 03:12:36 PM »

fitting posh pallets eliminates the finger slap sound eg fitting morino pallets to an Erica.   

as to how high the fingers  of the buttons   varying   amount of lift is  a very   easy way of lengthening or shortening notes  without effecting the overall timing of the tune.

george
 
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".    Available on ebay as a 'buy now' item. Put in melodeon tutor book for full info.  Melodeon DG & BC and piano accordion tuition

mory

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 732
Re: Finger slap
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2014, 03:19:50 PM »

quote "Anybody else notice anything similar"

Yes! I've noticed similar noises on your vids as well Steve  >:E 
Seriously though, surely it's as much to do with the speed of attack as anything else, why we tend not to see three finger triplets so much on melodeon (as opposed to button accordion) for instance?
Something I do notice on my C#D Tara if I go from mm to mmh (a sound I like for the cut/attack) I tend to try and be as fluid as possible otherwise the increase in pallet slap is considerably louder. I think its more to do with the cavity exposed beneath the pallet from the open block rather than the pallet themselves though, in my case at any rate.
All the Best mory
Logged

Stiamh - away for the summer

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3118
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: Finger slap
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2014, 03:34:16 PM »

fitting posh pallets eliminates the finger slap sound eg fitting morino pallets to an Erica.

Pallet noise is one thing, George and Mory, but actually I'm talking about the noise generated by contact of the finger with the button. At least I think I am.  ;) My Mike-R Hohners have well-faced pallets.

Maybe there's something about the plastic used in Hohner buttons? I just had a go on a somewhat clapped-out Italian box that I have lying around and found that though the pallets on that box are indeed very noisy, I don't get the same clatter from the fingers, or finger rather, against the big pearly-plastic buttons...   ??? More study required.
Logged
Taking a wee break
Senior member at meoldone.net
www.rogermillington.com

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5239
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: Finger slap
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2014, 03:53:30 PM »

On Hohners it's most likely the button hitting the side of the hole in the keyboard, because almost certainly your finger's impact on the button isn't perfectly straight so there's a sideways component. You might be able to reduce the noise by lining the holes with thin felt but it's not a job I'd like to attempt.
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh bands: www.fourhandband.co.uk www.barleycoteband.co.uk

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 5005
Re: Finger slap
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2014, 04:54:33 PM »

  have just tried on to get a noise from finger tapping buttons on  hohner, castagnari, serenellini and others without success athough a mere fraction of button movement on the hohners has produced definite pallet clap whereas on the  others it  hasn't

The only way I can get a noise from hitting a button is by hitting it with finger nail.  Could it be something to do with perhaps very slightly overlong finger nails as I keep mine  very short to avoid 'skidding' on the buttons at speed.

This could of course be a problem for those who also play stringy things that require a longer nail setting

george.
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".    Available on ebay as a 'buy now' item. Put in melodeon tutor book for full info.  Melodeon DG & BC and piano accordion tuition

Thrupenny Bit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5138
  • happily squeezing away in Devon
Re: Finger slap
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2014, 05:01:38 PM »

After a while playing, I ventured onto some tunes using buttons nearer my feet so started using my right hand little finger more and more. It started to hurt.
I realised I was slapping my pinkie onto the button with a downward flick as opposed to pressing it in a normal fashion. I broke the habit and use it normally, like the others, and it's now fine.
It was a reminder that you can cause damage to your joints if playing in an unusual way, as I was.
Q
Logged
Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

mory

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 732
Re: Finger slap
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2014, 05:37:54 PM »

Hi Steve maybe something in this?
On an Italian box the buttons tend to be much deeper and accommodate the side felt, on a Hohner the bottom of the button rarely reaches past the inside face of the keyboard thus not allowing this method of damping sideways movement/button clack, one of the reasons for button replacement on some of the Irish fettlers Hohner mods I've seen I think, although some replacements are just larger diameter and not longer.
Also with the method of long stick with felt button stops employed by some, over time with enthusiasm levers can become bent/off set and closer to the edge of the keyboard hole one of the reasons I don't like that method.
I also consider the thinness of Hohner mechs quite capable of producing clicking noises of their own not found with the substantially  thicker mechs. I once bushed all the holes (concertina style) on a pokerwork with woven felt from a snooker table, worked perfectly, not just because of stopping any rattles but also absorbed that flimsiness. AtB mory
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 08:17:58 PM by mory »
Logged

mory

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 732
Re: Finger slap
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2014, 08:33:58 AM »

One other thing Steve, if you have the wooden bar stop fitted (even with felt fitted) it's easy to create noise from impact, especially as unwoven felt can separate really quickly and be cut through from the lever. AtB mory
Logged

squeezy

  • Quick starter (now lagging behind)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
  • Hohner Cornelia (mixte D/G/o&s)
    • www.johnspiers.co.uk
Re: Finger slap
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2014, 02:25:10 AM »

If you make a point of learning to not use the whole of the button travel (which is a pretty massive overhaul in technique!) then you will eliminate most button noise and increase the snappiness of your playing.  Provided you go  far enough with each contact to open the pallets sufficiently then it has no detrimental effect on the reed sound.
Logged
Squeezy

Sometimes wrong, sometimes right ... but always certain!

malcolmbebb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2550
  • In dampest Dorset, on the soggy south coast.
Re: Finger slap
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2014, 07:36:25 AM »

And your fingers don't go down into the holes!
Logged
Dino BPII.
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire."

Stiamh - away for the summer

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3118
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: Finger slap
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2014, 02:20:23 PM »

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone. I have been busy and seem to have lost interest in the subject temporarily and am currently tempted to take Pikey's advice and live with the noise as a feature rather than a bug. In a quieter spell I will give the subject more thought though.

After cursory investigation (mory, anahata) I am sure the noise is not coming from the sides of the holes or from contact of the finger (you were right george) but from whatever the button or mechanism hits to stop its travel. I don't think Mike uses the wooden rod technique - correct me if I'm wrong on that Mike - and he did add something extra underneath after witnessing my "technique" but obviously more is needed! Maybe a replacement keyboard and mechanism - he is rumoured to be investigating these possibilities for Erica-style models.

Retraining my fingers to travel less certainly seems like a good idea. How much effort that would take and how successful it would prove at this stage in my playing is hard to evaluate. Will explore. Anyway, thanks again everybody.

aradru, you are winding me up, is it not?
Logged
Taking a wee break
Senior member at meoldone.net
www.rogermillington.com

mory

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 732
Re: Finger slap
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2014, 03:13:10 PM »

No problem here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcThzEOBv30
I took receipt of a Tara once where the mech actually hit the inside of the grill, some very careful adjustment and a little minor alloy trimming of the levers/pallets with a very sharp wood chisel and it turned into one of the best set up boxes going.  ;)
AtB mory
Logged

pikey

  • Addicted to squeezeboxes since 1975
  • Thread mod
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3303
  • If it moves, I'll squeeze it....
Re: Finger slap
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2014, 06:09:05 PM »

Listen to any of my YouTube recordings with the Lilliput, and you will hear the same percussive effect.

Mike reckons it's my 'aggressive' playing style, which I'm not changing for any money to a 'wet lettuce' style. That just wouldn't be me  ;)
Logged
Still squeezing after all these years.
Mostly on hohners , with a couple of Dinos and a smattering of anglos - and now a Jeffries duet

Ebor_fiddler

  • Chris
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2340
  • Hohner 1040 C One-Row, Sandpiper D/G, Liliput C/F
    • Ebor Morris
Re: Finger slap
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2014, 08:11:42 PM »

Stiamh Mr Jones - have you though of putting a strip of fuzzy-felt below the buttons to silence them?  :-* :||: :||:
Logged
I'm a Yorkie!
My other melodeon's a fiddle, but one of my Hohners has six strings! I also play a very red Hawkins Bazaar in C and a generic Klingenthaler spoon bass in F.!! My other pets (played) are gobirons - Hohner Marine Band in C, Hohner Tremolo in D and a Chinese Thingy Tremolo in G.

forrest

  • Other Places::
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 999
  • digits still functioning
Re: Finger slap
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2014, 04:51:29 AM »

How about trying some kidskin gloves? Seriously though, I love my Hohners, and even the bushed and well felted ones will produce mechanical noise when I record. My mikes pick up every click and clack, as well as any squeaks from the chair, etc. I have tried different distances from mikes, and different level settings. I tend now to agree with Pikey and not worry about it. It's a bit like string/finger noise on a guitar, to my mind, sometimes it does actually add a nice dimension to the playing.
Logged

LDbosca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 674
Re: Finger slap
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2014, 07:08:57 AM »

I think it's pretty common for the index finger to fly a bit high, but keeping it tucked down lower is something I always recommend that my students try to do. Mostly for economy of technique and neatness, but I reckon that excessive finger impact leads to premature clicking noises on boxes such as saltarelles that have the reverse lever mechanism (or whatever you call it), so that's something to bear in mind.
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal