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Author Topic: Numbered buttons  (Read 11004 times)

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Boyen

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2014, 02:46:33 PM »

I don't think it matters whether you link a letter, a number or a sign to a sound when it comes to learning a tune. After you've learned the tune it all goes automatically anyway. In that case, since the numbers tell you what to do you need to make one translation step less which lets you focus on the music instead of translation.
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Sebastian

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2014, 05:52:08 PM »

I don't think it matters whether you link a letter, a number or a sign to a sound when it comes to learning a tune.
There is a more or less direct link between a nota and the required process I have to undertake to produce it on a piano keyboard. Every dot is linked to only one possible key.

This is different for most melodeons, where I can push button X on the push or button Y on the pull to realise the same dot. I have different ways to realise a given note.

That is where tabulature comes in: Melodeon tabulature doesn't tell you directly which note it is, you should play, but it tells you what to do to produce the tune. (Of course there exist bastard formes which mix both concepts, but I hope I could make my point a bit clearer.)

Quote
After you've learned the tune [...] since the numbers tell you what to do you need to make one translation step less which lets you focus on the music instead of translation.
I couldn't differ more from that.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 05:53:52 PM by Sebastian »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2014, 06:27:08 PM »



      ::) time to revisit the analogy of "Painting by Numbers"  :-\
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Aldina

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2014, 10:53:44 AM »


There is  this french site
http://www.erwan-diato.fr/editeur_de_tablature/clavier4.php
you copy your abc to the blanc space clik at "Transformer en tablature" and it will be converted to numbers
But I don't know if the sistem is the same you use,  this system numbers the first row as 1 to n, the second as 1' to n' the third as 1'' to n''.... they use letters for the basses.
Hope this is usefull.
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Stiamh

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2014, 01:07:26 PM »

But numbered buttons differ in that they tell the player what he has to do to play a tune.

You only need numbered buttons to tell you what to do if you don't know what the buttons do.  (:)

gettabettabox

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2014, 06:31:30 PM »



But numbered buttons differ in that they tell the player what he has to do to play a tune.

You only need numbered buttons to tell you what to do if you don't know what the buttons do.  (:)


i'll get some of them...talking numbered buttons.  (:)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 06:33:30 PM by gettabettabox »
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Helena Handcart

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2014, 08:35:47 PM »

You only need numbered buttons to tell you what to do if you don't know what the buttons do.  (:)

From personal experience as someone who began playing melodeon with absolutely minimal musical theory knowledge I would change this only slightly:

You only need numbered buttons to tell you what to do until you know what the buttons do  ;)

At least that's how it worked for me.I started out annotating the dots with my red pen and my blue pen but over time, and very quickly really, doing this taught me to read the dots. I'm still not as good with the D row or with notes right up the squeaky end but for me using this sort of notation was a huge positive.  YMMV and all that of course.
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malcolmbebb

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2014, 09:12:40 PM »

Pretty much what Helena said. The tablature - whichever you use - is like stabilisers for melodeons. It gets you started - you can learn how to hold the box, how to use the air button, bellows reversals and most of the basics using tablature.
It's one less thing to deal with when getting started.

I am surprised at the apparent animosity towards it. Different things work for different people.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #48 on: November 26, 2014, 10:06:35 PM »

No problem at all for true beginners, Malcolm. But we have had a few here still using numbers at nearly a year in, and at least one who had made up his own notation :Ph
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DavidH

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #49 on: November 26, 2014, 10:45:17 PM »

I'm with Helena and malcolmbebb on this one. I could read staff notation before I started, but I found the dots-plus-numbers system of Roger Watson's handbook for melodeon to be absolutely invaluable. Certainly I could figure out the tune from the dots note-by-note, but having the page tell me what button to push, when to push and pull, when to push the air button and when to change rows meant that I could play tunes fluently from the get-go, as long as I took it slowly enough. If had had to remember each of those things in order to play the tune I would have found it significantly more difficult to get started.

Once I had worked my way through my chosen book, supplemented by a few tunes from daddy long les' site notated similarly and a few tunes I learned by ear, I found that I could then quite comfortably read tunes simple tunes from dots - for example Mally's cotswold morris book.

For this reason, I don't find the comparison with painting by numbers to be particularly apt. A better analogy is the very common style of painting tutorial in which several key stages in a particular style of painting are shown along with tips on the materials selected and techniques used at each stage. This allows a painter to develop individual skills while producing full paintings, without needing the depth of experience the expert has to identify stages, select colours etc themselves. An experienced painter would not need this kind of support - but might still get a few ideas from such a presentation. Painting by numbers would be more like being guided hand-over-hand through the motions needed to produce a tune on the melodeon - very much less beneficial.

To bring my post marginally back on-topic: Daddy Long Les' site (http://lestitford.macmate.me/daddylongles/melodeonmusic.html) has a few tunes notated with tablature - although I suspect these will be too few and too basic to satisfy the OP!
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Grape Ape

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2014, 12:29:51 AM »

It does seem a bit strange how strongly some people are against this system.  It is the system used in
the Pignol and Milleret tuition books, and is a system used throughout France, and that likely was used in the instruction of many great French players that I look up to. While capable of learning by ear, I use tablatures for trickier tunes as well as to figure out parts of tunes that I can't seem to get right by ear. This conversation is starting to seem a bit Anglocentric....

I wonder, If Picasso had indulged himself with a Paint by Numbers set, would it not now be in a museum?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 01:52:45 AM by Grape Ape »
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george garside

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2014, 09:19:12 AM »

I think a  couple of reasons for some people stayng with button numbers  beyond absolute beginners stage  are
'
-  unlike a piano keyboard the button keyboard is difficult to visualise  in respect of where 'up a bit' or 'down a bit' is! A quick gander at a piano keyboards completely linear layout with black notes as navigational aids is fairly obvious to most people.

-  having to process 4  functions simultaneously  , rather than the 3 of a piano box or 2 of a piano, is  a step to far for some.

   ( button box   4 functions = treble, bass,  bellows, bellow direction  or 5 if you throw in 'air button')

Playing scales and saying the name of the note as its played helps to provide the essential knowledge of the button board

george
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2014, 09:21:47 AM »

It is though that a few
C18th English Masters
such as Landseer used
this method ;)

And they did all right  :|glug                .
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malcolmbebb

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #53 on: November 27, 2014, 09:50:49 AM »

It is though that a few
C18th English Masters
such as Landseer used
this method ;)

And they did all right  :|glug                .
Yes, but if you tried this on a tune you'd end up butchering it.
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Ebor_fiddler

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2014, 10:03:05 AM »

Where did you say your coat was, Malcolm?
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Boyen

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2014, 02:41:50 PM »

I think a  couple of reasons for some people stayng with button numbers  beyond absolute beginners stage  are
I appreciate your effort.
But has it occured to you that it might be (for those people) quite simply the most effective methodology for learning new tunes?

I can read dots, I've had piano lessons for 4 years. Yet, I prefer my numbered tabs over those dots. They read much faster, can be notated on the fly and can serve as memory helpers on how to play a tune when multiple options are available.

Can people that see the numbered system as less effective give arguments why it would be less effective?
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syale

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2014, 03:03:19 PM »

No problem at all for true beginners, Malcolm. But we have had a few here still using numbers at nearly a year in, and at least one who had made up his own notation :Ph

My answer to this is 'so what' as long as they are playing and being happy doing it.

Stephen
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Sebastian

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #57 on: November 27, 2014, 04:24:26 PM »

Can people that see the numbered system as less effective give arguments why it would be less effective?
There are many numbered systems. Which one are you talking about specifically? What do you mean by "less effective"?
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Roger Howard

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #58 on: November 27, 2014, 05:28:52 PM »


I am surprised at the apparent animosity towards it. Different things work for different people.

My sentiments exactly. If tablature  - of whatever system, CADB, Corgeron, etc - works for you, use it. If anyone makes you feel guilty about, just pretend to be French. Have a glass of red wine, and the feeling will pass.  ;)

Roger
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 05:32:11 PM by Roger Howard »
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Boyen

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #59 on: November 27, 2014, 06:17:23 PM »

There are many numbered systems. Which one are you talking about specifically? What do you mean by "less effective"?
Anything that causes people to make statements such as expressed in this topic, linking notation system to skill level somehow.

Lets take harmonica derived tabs for example:

6 -> push 6 (inner)
-6 -> pull 6 (inner)
6 -> push 6 (outer)
-6 -> pull 6 (outer)
6! --> double the length (quarter note)
6!! --> tripple the length (etc.)
[6] --> cut on 6
{6} --> roll with center 6
6^ --> stutter on 6
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