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Author Topic: Numbered buttons  (Read 11003 times)

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Sebastian

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #60 on: November 27, 2014, 07:30:10 PM »

On the melodeon I play music like this:

How would it look like in tabs?
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2014, 08:10:44 PM »

I'm with you there. Sebastion, though as someone who used to learn tunes and songs by ear … it has been a long journey. And I still prefer byearism … another melnet invented English word :|glug
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Boyen

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2014, 08:17:33 PM »

First bar would look like this, it's not even possible on my accordion but just for the sake of example (would normally put chords above the notes but can't get them to align here):

F_! 9 (11,-11)! 9 Dm_! 11 (9,10)! 11 |
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 08:19:28 PM by Boyen »
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Grape Ape

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2014, 08:55:02 PM »

The tablature I think we are discussing looks more like this:

http://www.erwan-diato.fr/tab/autre/swing%20valse.pdf
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Boyen

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2014, 09:27:51 PM »

Aye.. the tablature I'm using originates from mouth organs. I doubt there's any other button box player out there that uses it.
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Sebastian

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2014, 10:46:33 PM »

Aye.. the tablature I'm using originates from mouth organs. I doubt there's any other button box player out there that uses it.
Than, where do you get it from? Or do you have to transcribe them all by yourself?

And, how do you play the chords, when you have to change direction to play the discant side?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 10:48:56 PM by Sebastian »
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Boyen

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2014, 07:34:26 AM »

Than, where do you get it from? Or do you have to transcribe them all by yourself?
I usually do, only tabs are useless anyway, I need to understand the music (read: listen to it a lot) before I can play it.
But I did write a script that automatically parses abc into my tabs.
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george garside

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2014, 10:05:10 AM »

This seems to me to be getting somewhat complicated.   In the main I think there are  three  ''catagories'' of players , 'earists',   'dotists''  and those who do a bit of both, (? ''' earandotists!''  or maybe ''bothists'').   

earists use their  ears and dotists use their dots etc and neither need  what seems to be  progressively more complicated sets of 'tabs' ,which are far removed from the simple tabs use by myself and others  to kick start absolute beginners

Or am I missing something

george

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Boyen

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2014, 10:17:15 AM »

george, there was a sudden change of subject due to some questions of Sebastian. But I agree they were off topic.

I can assure you however that it is not a complicated system, just unknown to you. In all fairness, dots also looks like martian signs when you don't know them. There is a huge collection of tabs in this notation and thousands of players that use it. It's just for a different instrument (mouth organ/harmonica, see harptabs.com for instance).

In essence however, the tabs that Grape Ape posted aren't any different from what I posted. Take away the dots from Grape Apes tabs and you essentially have my tabs, both describe actions that use numbered buttons. And that's exactly the point that we're discussing:

Why is describing actions (as opposed to notes) less effective for advanced players, compared to dots?
I use the tabs because they are, by far, the fastest most effective way for me to learn and transcribe new tunes. Apparently some members here seem to think that I'm missing out and should use dots, I would like to hear arguments.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 10:28:32 AM by Boyen »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #69 on: November 28, 2014, 11:04:37 AM »

let's see

      "the whole of the rest of [Occidental] music uses dots"? :|glug
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 12:14:23 PM by Chris Ryall »
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Boyen

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2014, 11:10:24 AM »

And without argumentum ad populum?  :|glug
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Theo

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #71 on: November 28, 2014, 11:27:12 AM »

let's see

      "the whole of the rest of music uses dots"? :|glug

Bit of a sweeping statement that Chris.
If you'd said the whole of Music of European origin I could have agreed.  But I can't imagine that, for example, Indian classical music would manage very well with staff notation, or any other tradition with more than 12 notes in their scales.
Even in European music there are other common systems, solfa for example has been a common system in choirs I've been associated with.

Boyen - if it works for you then that is really all that matters.
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Sebastian

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #72 on: November 28, 2014, 11:54:08 AM »

There is a huge collection of tabs in this notation and thousands of players that use it. It's just for a different instrument (mouth organ/harmonica, see harptabs.com for instance).
The biggest advantage of normal musical notation is it's universality and versality. Tabulature systems are generally more narrowed and restricted. One other advantage over tabulature is that the pitch relation (and often the length relation) is expressed visually.

Quote
Why is describing actions (as opposed to notes) less effective for advanced players, compared to dots?
When I play tunes on a melodeon, I have in my mind the harmonic structure of the piece. And I play along this harmonic progression. For me, it is easier to extract the harmonic progression from the "dots" than from tabulature. (There may be different reasons for that.) When I have to play harmonica from harmonica tabs, I have to translate the tabs to normal notation in my mind, and than I can play it. When I try to play the tabs directly the output is not very satisfying. I do the same process, when I try to play harmonica tabs on an ocarina or a jews harp or a keyboard. But I normally prefer not to have to do this additional step.

Quote
I use the tabs because they are, by far, the fastest most effective way for me to learn and transcribe new tunes.
I would not deny that this might be true for you now. Many people do love and pamper their personal idosyncrasies.
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Sebastian

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2014, 12:06:15 PM »

Can people that see the numbered system as less effective give arguments why it would be less effective?
On the basis of the example you gave:

1. It does not give a visual representation of the pitch relation (high notes - low notes).
2. It does not give a visual representation of the length relation.
3. Simultaneous notes are written consecutively.
4. There is no easy indication as to in which tonality you are, so that
5. The harmonic relations remain unclear.
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george garside

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2014, 12:08:29 PM »

whatever happened to the traditional way of   playing by ear?

george >:E :|glug :||:
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Sebastian

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #75 on: November 28, 2014, 12:16:43 PM »

whatever happened to the traditional way of   playing by ear?
Boyen has already explained, that his tabulature system is "useless anyway" without "listen to [the music] a lot".
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #76 on: November 28, 2014, 12:17:28 PM »

whatever happened to the traditional way of   playing by ear? george >:E :|glug :||:

  Shame on you, George. You know that's of no use
  to someone who can't get his head round the buttons ;)
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Sebastian

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #77 on: November 28, 2014, 01:05:04 PM »

Can people that see the numbered system as less effective give arguments why it would be less effective?
On the basis of the example you gave:

1. It does not give a visual representation of the pitch relation (high notes - low notes).
2. It does not give a visual representation of the length relation.
3. Simultaneous notes are written consecutively.
4. There is no easy indication as to in which tonality you are, so that
5. The harmonic relations remain unclear.
6. It cuts you of from the musical tradition.
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Boyen

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #78 on: November 28, 2014, 01:07:21 PM »

Boyen has already explained, that his tabulature system is "useless anyway" without "listen to [the music] a lot".
And I see that as an advantage. I create a much better record of a tune in my head by combining listening with tabs as opposed to using dots where I don't need to listen.
On the basis of the example you gave:
What you listed were global downsides of using tabs as opposed to dots.
My question was, what are the downsides on the effectiveness of learning or remembering tunes, which is the reason why we're using written music in the first place.
All the visual representation of harmony and pitch are useless when you know a tune by listening.

For all the tunes that only have dots available, I'll learn it from dots. But that doesn't make dots more effective, it just makes it more available.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 01:21:37 PM by Boyen »
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Sebastian

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Re: Numbered buttons
« Reply #79 on: November 28, 2014, 01:20:52 PM »

And I see that as an advantage. I create a much better record of a tune in my head by combining listening with tabs as opposed to using dots where I don't need to listen.
I'm afraid, I'm simply to dull to follow you.

I wish you a good day.
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