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Author Topic: Over the hills and far away  (Read 2379 times)

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Tone Dumb Greg

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Over the hills and far away
« on: November 23, 2014, 11:19:04 PM »

a friend has asked me to back him singing John Tams setting of Over The Hills And far Away. I have worked out harmonic structure (very basic) and most of the melody ok, but I can't get the "Over the hills and far away" tag line right to save my life. Please can someone help me out?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOeYPpOblAw

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Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

Chris Ryall

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Re: Over the hills and far away
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2014, 07:28:51 AM »

I hear that line as hanging on a IV chord, so essentially "C" in the video example.

But the tune is very close to being pentatonic and any harmony should reflect that. Tams keeps in very simple mode, essentially a G drone with other notes occasionally hinted.  There is no 7th in there, though a maj7 F# seems implied. The 4th C is also rare, and when it comes both song and tune are in tension.

Which brings back to that C chord. He's using diatonic modal harmony rather than dominants, and the "pull" comes from clashing adjacent notes rather then the C-F# tri-tone. Chez moi it likes D4 (DGA push) a lot.

Against the pivotal C bass … most notes work. I quite like rocking D row EG (=C triad) against DF# which is a brief D7 inversion, though the C pedal feels more important to my ear.

C6 (pull EA on C bass) also works, and I also like sticking in a D row A note with the baseline G chord, all very restless, so sympathetic to the lyric.

Experiment, and decide what you and the singer like. But keep simplifying to a drone or drone+ single different note. I think more is less in this, and "full chords" feel too heavy to my ear.
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Lester

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Re: Over the hills and far away
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2014, 07:55:43 AM »

george garside

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Re: Over the hills and far away
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2014, 10:37:30 AM »

its not  a tune I have played but  my immediate thoughts  would be, if accompanying a singer, to keep it fairly '' smooth''  using right hand chords ,   or perhaps from time to time holding a treble  note as a ''drone'' whilst using another  finger for the 'tune'  .           I would restrict  the bass to  the occasional 'drone'   or even play treble only

As has been said  it should be the singers choice  so  maybe  offer a couple of different  arrangements  but always remember the  you are the 'accompanyist'  and the singer is the 'artist'

george
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Over the hills and far away
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2014, 10:52:07 AM »

From my blog

Thanks for replying Lester, but that is more, or less the John Gaye/Dr Pepusch setting, that I already play and that I plan to use as a coda (if coda is the correct word to use) to round the song off. I am looking to nail the sung melody a bit more accurately than I have it now.

Greg
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Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Over the hills and far away
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2014, 12:20:02 PM »

I hear that line as hanging on a IV chord, so essentially "C" in the video example.

But the tune is very close to being pentatonic and any harmony should reflect that. Tams keeps in very simple mode, essentially a G drone with other notes occasionally hinted.  There is no 7th in there, though a maj7 F# seems implied. The 4th C is also rare, and when it comes both song and tune are in tension.

Which brings back to that C chord. He's using diatonic modal harmony rather than dominants, and the "pull" comes from clashing adjacent notes rather then the C-F# tri-tone. Chez moi it likes D4 (DGA push) a lot.

Against the pivotal C bass … most notes work. I quite like rocking D row EG (=C triad) against DF# which is a brief D7 inversion, though the C pedal feels more important to my ear.

C6 (pull EA on C bass) also works, and I also like sticking in a D row A note with the baseline G chord, all very restless, so sympathetic to the lyric.

Experiment, and decide what you and the singer like. But keep simplifying to a drone or drone+ single different note. I think more is less in this, and "full chords" feel too heavy to my ear.

Hmm. That's really helpful Chris. Thanks.  Now you've got me thinking (which is good, I think). Sorry, now, that I dismissed the harmonic content as simple. Maybe I should have said deceptively simple (:). I have been droning the basses and dabbing the chord on the off beat, some of the time. Sounds ok but, maybe, a bit conventionally harmonious and lacking in tension.

If playing in a pentatonic scale means dropping the c note, than that sort of matches what I have been trying to do with the right hand, just putting the c in on line 4 of the verses and chorus. I'm  trying playing around in the ways you suggest. It needs the singer to be doing his bit, to tell if it works, and we don't meet until Wednesday.

Speaking of line 4,  I want to try playing it (more or less) as suing, behind the singer (as against bits of harmony and skeleton melody for the rest of the backing). At the moment I am playing (with L=1/8) E2 D2 DE F#G |Bc (A2|A3)z over a droned D bass. Sounds ok(ish) but not quite what I hear listening to John's singing. If it was just me I wouldn't worry about it, but I'd like to get it right for the singer.
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Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Over the hills and far away
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2014, 12:29:53 PM »

its not  a tune I have played but  my immediate thoughts  would be, if accompanying a singer, to keep it fairly '' smooth''  using right hand chords ,   or perhaps from time to time holding a treble  note as a ''drone'' whilst using another  finger for the 'tune'  .           I would restrict  the bass to  the occasional 'drone'   or even play treble only

As has been said  it should be the singers choice  so  maybe  offer a couple of different  arrangements  but always remember the  you are the 'accompanyist'  and the singer is the 'artist'

george
Thanks George. Smooth is what I am aiming at. I have tried the   right hand with minimal bass approach, but I am finding it difficult to get a feel for how it will work without the singer there. I don't call myself tone dumb for nothing. It describe my singing abilities perfectly! My  ears aren't usually to wide of the mark though.
I have noted your comments   "accompanyist" and artist and will take them on board. I'll try and add to and support his performance, rather than bury it  (:)
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Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

Chris Ryall

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Re: Over the hills and far away
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2014, 01:55:31 PM »

Does't much matter which bass your drone, except each will "place" the melody on a different mode relative to itself and they will feel different. The right hand stuff gets the same effect: D is a tension note against C, but relaxed v G or D. And vice versa. you and singer have choices. But a drone is a drone, so keep it simple IMO

I wouldn't try too hard to play melody either, unless allowed a solo.  Just lay in simple notes, into and out of tension depending on what the lyrics are up to as much as its cadences. Bzarrely the audience will hear all manner of brilliance in this. Less is more in accompaniment, though you can get away will more notes in a "jolly" song.

[aside] My friend Andy in Bradford divides all songs into just 2 genres, "come all ye … " and "Nelly the Elephant". There's a lot of truth in that.  In John Gay's time you might conceivably have accompanied this one either way, but (as usual!) Tam's  version is.rather darker?  :|glug
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Over the hills and far away
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2014, 08:55:41 PM »

Does't much matter which bass your drone, except each will "place" the melody on a different mode relative to itself and they will feel different. The right hand stuff gets the same effect: D is a tension note against C, but relaxed v G or D. And vice versa. you and singer have choices. But a drone is a drone, so keep it simple IMO

I wouldn't try too hard to play melody either, unless allowed a solo.  Just lay in simple notes, into and out of tension depending on what the lyrics are up to as much as its cadences. Bzarrely the audience will hear all manner of brilliance in this. Less is more in accompaniment, though you can get away will more notes in a "jolly" song.

[aside] My friend Andy in Bradford divides all songs into just 2 genres, "come all ye … " and "Nelly the Elephant". There's a lot of truth in that.  In John Gay's time you might conceivably have accompanied this one either way, but (as usual!) Tam's  version is.rather darker?  :|glug

Thanks Chris . I'll do this. See how it works on Wednesday!

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Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

The Blues Viking

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Re: Over the hills and far away
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2014, 01:18:17 AM »

I do much that same setting on the "A" row of my A/D box, using the A/E and D/A bass notes alternately to create a "drone" on the A note. It sounds OK to me. I've been doing it this way since I saw the "Sharpe's Rifles" TV shows.

TBV
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Over the hills and far away
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2014, 08:52:19 PM »

I do much that same setting on the "A" row of my A/D box, using the A/E and D/A bass notes alternately to create a "drone" on the A note. It sounds OK to me. I've been doing it this way since I saw the "Sharpe's Rifles" TV shows.

TBV

Sounds interesting. Don't suppose there's a recording anywhere?
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Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

The Blues Viking

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Re: Over the hills and far away
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2014, 09:39:17 PM »

I do much that same setting on the "A" row of my A/D box, using the A/E and D/A bass notes alternately to create a "drone" on the A note. It sounds OK to me. I've been doing it this way since I saw the "Sharpe's Rifles" TV shows.

TBV

Sounds interesting. Don't suppose there's a recording anywhere?

Not of me, there isn't. I hope.

TBV
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