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[jerfish]

I'm looking into a GC Castagnari Dony someday as a superbox - concerned a bit about weight.  My teaching and learning question is - I still don't know what possibilities are opened up by the four accidentals on the third row vs a standard setup two row with accidentals.

I do not understand Mode types all that well and the different types of scales (lacking musical theory and scale construction types) but I would benefit from a musical explanation standpoint (i.e. examples of music types such as do the extra accidentals permit Eastern Balkan music or Klezmer type scales/songs).

Thanks!

[robotmay]

My knowledge of the different modes is pretty lacking, but I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will turn up and explain at some point. Also I wouldn't worry about the weight of a Dony, as it's not a heavy box (well, at least not in my experience).

My next box will be a G/C with a half row, as it'll open up a lot of possibilities for me. The biggest thing for me is having the accidentals over two octaves and having them in a more convenient location (here's an example of a tune I enjoy playing which has a fairly awkward Eb (it's a D/G box)). The fingering for that tune should be less of a pain in Dm on a G/C box, I think (although it's even simpler with that fingering, but having the accidental on the half-row).

Having the half-row on a G/C box opens up handy keys like F, Eb, Bb (depending on what layout you have), which are popular in plenty of European music. Also Welsh music uses lots of accidentals, often being very similar to English/Scottish tunes but with funky accidentals spread throughout

[Theo]

- I still don't know what possibilities are opened up by the four accidentals on the third row vs a standard setup two row with accidentals.

Do you already use the two accidental buttons?  If not I suggest doing some exploration of what they can offer.  For me the buttons on the half row I use most often are (on a DG) the F nat which comes into many Am tunes, and the G# which come into some tunes in A major.  Translating that to GC would be Eb to use in Dm tunes, and C# to use in D major tunes.  But there are many other possibilities.
And don't forget the bass. With 12 instead of 8 bass you open up all sort of possibilities in other ways. For examples playing bass lines.

[arty]

I'm looking into a GC Castagnari Dony someday as a superbox - concerned a bit about weight.  My teaching and learning question is - I still don't know what possibilities are opened up by the four accidentals on the third row vs a standard setup two row with accidentals.

I do not understand Mode types all that well and the different types of scales (lacking musical theory and scale construction types) but I would benefit from a musical explanation standpoint (i.e. examples of music types such as do the extra accidentals permit Eastern Balkan music or Klezmer type scales/songs).

Thanks!

I am certainly not an expert and can't answer your questions, sorry.

Reading your post (I'm sorry if I'm wrong!), it seems that you have all but decided on a Castagnari Dony and then wondering about the different kinds of music you will be able to play on it. You ask about Eastern Balkan music and Klezmer music too, which I understand to mean that you would like that in your repertoire.
 
Might I suggest that you decide exactly what music you want to play first and then look for a box that will enable you to do that. Spend time listening to the music you want to play, on You Tube and see what types of boxes those musicians play. It just might be that a Dony is not right for you. With my very limited experience, I would have thought that you would need a three voice box for Klezmer for a start. Listen to this fabulous player here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpQsANkTGdk, he's playing a G/C/F box and it has a much bigger, fuller sound than a Dony.

I hope you don't mind, but it has taken me 2 1/2 years to decide what type of music suits me and now I have to change my box to enable me to do it properly. It would have been easier if I had known what I wanted to play first and then found the box to suit - and cheaper!

All I am saying is, don't decide on a particular instrument until you know for sure that it is the right box for what you want to play. I repeat - I am no expert!

[jerfish]

Thanks all. I guess my issue is I want to play everything depending on the day of the week

I'm not sold on the Fony, mostly because for the price I'd rather a three voice LMM with switches (preferable singling out as M, MM, and LMM for instance)

I never played klezmer, but like the notes it uses, as it's similar to Balkan music I grew up with in Pittsburgh USA (which was locally always played on a piano accordion).

I'm currently mostly on a French and Italian kick but overall want to have the capabilities for those melancholy sounds of minor scales (or modes or whichever the proper nomenclature is -  I apologize for my ignorance I that matter) or the different sound that other world regions have.  I think I need to just focus for once! 


As an example Songs Someday I'd like to achieve, that appear reachable on a two row with accidentals
http://youtu.be/RYiCWdHeDQs

http://youtu.be/GYD8xKB7QrI

http://youtu.be/M1PHDM4SzJo

http://youtu.be/4OMGzgRx6ow

http://youtu.be/S7GTQ9Efboo

Songs I think I can't achieve on two row (or any diatonic?) but looking to see if that's true

http://youtu.be/k1Og3W43sws

http://youtu.be/WyXYBTBapRU

http://youtu.be/a5D8rzOO-bM

[Chris Ryall]

The "modes" are just the 7 possibilities of start note of the diatonic scale. The "interest" is that each has a special musical characted, and a sensitive note … the flattened second one in your Balkan tunes example.

anyway, as such they can all be explored easily using either of the two diatonic rows of any melodeon. The issue for performance being that your D/G basses are not set up for basing eg an outer row melody on an F# tonic (mode 1=D, 2=E, 3=F# etc) rather than the D that our Western soaked brains expect.

If you choose to play that same tune on a tonic of E, grabbing a C from the inner row, and Theo's F "accidental" then you are actually using the third mode of C diatonic scale - count it out

That's all it is really. The rest is creativity,  realising there are different  cultural traditions, and … practice.

[ed]  just spotted the klesmer f/on post. It, Arab/Flamenco scales and some others are based not on diatonics but on the harmonic minor. 7 more modes, I'm afraid, though only 3-4 are used much. As these don't map to diatonics … they'll always need at least one accidental. Commonly a DG is set up to suit E harmonic minor, again so the basses  can work against tune.

 http://chrisryall.net/modes might help?

[Chris Ryall]

Tried the videos. the banks of the Seine one is harmonic minor, but as such should play on Em on a D/G, Am on a GC, using its G# accidental with the push E major chord (that's why it is major) . Others all diatonic.

The "unachievables"

the first is phrygian major, the "arab/flamenco" scale playable as above, A natural minor and Bb accidental on a GC

Second is a mix of natural and harmonic minors, very gypsy, as the "gitane" references hint. Should again work in Am, but this time the accidental is G#

Last one sounded complex and I'd need an instrument to hand. I think the song is basically major, but with a special arrangement - Croatians … they just sing like that, often a cappella. So if you can't get there the choir will still be happy

[jerfish]

Chris, thank you. I kind of had you in mind when I made this post, as your understanding of these things is what I was hoping for. 

It appears then I don't really need to jump to a piano accordion  , but just have realistic expectations. And learn some theory.

If I might ask then, what new possibilities are opened up by the Dony?  I suppose those extra basses are one, but the accidental row?  They appear to be duplicates of the same just two different octaves, so the same scales are available but just in extended octaves?  I'd imagine it'd be quite sometime before I need any of that however.

[Chris Ryall]

Well … tunes with accidentals in 2 octaves for a start, in some cases nearly three. I was going to add that you might consider LM voicing, saving weight and money. Though the GC plays in the mid box naturally.

Is there a 5th acc button. If so a reversal helper mid box is fantastically useful. For you that's A/G, but if you can't manage that consider a GG glichton. I was too old to "relearn" but both really facilitate the flow of music, and chording

[jerfish]

http://www.buttonbox.com/images/ABC0820.pdf

That's the layout. I guess alternatively for half the cost is a Hohner Galaad (I'm trading in the Morgane either way). Yes the Dony has A#/G# on the first accidental in row three.  The Galaad has four accidentals,  12 basses and a stop for the thirds.

[Theo]

Thanks all. I guess my issue is I want to play everything depending on the day of the week

The great strength of the melodeon comes from its limitations, which makes it a superb tool for certain types of music that exploit its strengths.  There are all sorts of developments, such as a part or full row of accidentals, and extra bass buttons that extend its capabilities.  But even with these it's still an instrument that sits best in ior close to its comfort zone.  All the extras add bulk and weight which also have an influence on playing technique. Most of us have to work out for ourselves how far down that road we want to go.  Some are content with a 2 row 8 bass, others have extra half or full rows, or even more than 3 rows. It is a matter of working out what works for you.  An extra half row is a good step to start that exploration, but I think you really have to spend a lot of time playing the instrument to really understand what it is capable of.
Good luck and enjoy the journey.

[Bob Ellis]

You posts suggest to me that you are assuming that the Dony comes with a set layout of accidentals on the half row, but you can have any layout you like. It is true that Castagnari provide a default layout, but you can specify any layout you want when you order from them. If you buy second-hand, you can get the half-row re-tuned to the layout you desire.

So what is it you want? For me, the advantages of a half row are to provide accidentals to enable me to play in keys other than the home keys of the other two rows and the opportunity to include some reversals that can make the playing of difficult passages easier. As others have said, decide first on the types of music you want to play, identify the keys and modes commonly used in those genres and buy a box that will enable you to play in those keys and modes.

[WestOz]

Informatively, my D/G Dony weighs 4.3kg, so not a heavy box.

[Chris Ryall]

Attach a stock pic of the Casta Dony so we all know what is being talked about. It is a 12 bass 2row+5 setup, so I guess you'd get double accs and a G/A reverse as standard. Other setup by arrangement. Music Room say it is 2 voice (I'd prefer LM on a DG, perhaps MM on a GC)?  I guess the same with a full  3 voices is the "Mory", which Mr Cutting has long proved to be a "superbox".  But I think Andy plays it mainly in home keys;  and carries another for those special tonalities? 

Off piste keys, and special modes (the same thing in essence) are great fun. But as several above say or imply .. it gradually eases you out of melodeonism, until eventually you'd do better with a CBA. I personally enjoy that sort of stuff and would be happy in a Balkan band, but have always kept a 2 row as the bones of my setup. Basically it's the right thing to have in a rollocking good mixed session!

[Thrupenny Bit]

QUOTE:
"But as several above say or imply .. it gradually eases you out of melodeonism, until eventually you'd do better with a CBA. ..."

I have just heard exactly the same comment from Ed Rennie about 5 mins ago!
We both work in the same place and 'twas a chance meeting both grabbing a cuppa, and inevitably had a quick chat about boxes.
Having just got his new chord book from him, we talked about right hand chords, scales etc etc, and the conversation went on with him said a 2.5 row gives you more options, but then a 3 row has even more, but you are then in the realms of a CBA!

As Theo has just said, it's down to how far you want to go, or perhaps how far you *don't* want to go along the road. I was stunned in the summer when a friend showed me what his 2.5 row could do, and it was far more than I ever imagined, and more to the point, more than I think I need at this time.
That's my personal thoughts. They may change as time goes on, who knows where the journey leads?
Q

[Chris Ryall]

.

    .. Lyon in my case, about 2 months off

[squeezy]

There's a lot of talk about how adding lots of extra notes and basses to a melodeon somehow detracts from it's melodeon-ness such that you'd be better off going with a continental chromatic box.

The way I see it, the bonus in a melodeon system is the bounce you get from a push-pull system plus the fact that all of us have already gone to the trouble of learning the fingering!  In expanding to 2.5 or 3 rows and 12-18 basses you don't lose either of those things but you do gain some abilities to play stuff that you could play on a continental chromatic.  But there is no way of gaining that automatic bounce in a CBA and you would need to learn an entirely new system from scratch. 

Of course the above only applies if your 2.5 or 3 row doesn't get so big and heavy as to need the muscles of a Titan to control the push-pull aspect properly.

On top of that - I find that the mechanism of the stradella bass almost never gives as nice a bass/chord sound as a melodeon system bass for various reasons I guess (the mechanism acts as a mute on the reeds etc.) ... also the hand position for playing stradella is different and makes it hard to be quite so physical with the left arm which takes away from the push-pull aspect further.

I'm not anti-CBA ... I think it's very clever - I prefer B system to C system for hand position - and I think it is a massively more sensible system than piano-accordion in terms of efficiency.  However ... I am very pro-2.5 row melodeon for all the reasons given above.  It will never be able to do everything tonally like a CBA can (which is why we are always debating certain aspects of layout) - but it can get very very close while retaining all that is good about the 1 and 2 row systems.

[Bob Ellis]

I would echo everything that Squeezy said. While I much prefer my 2.6 row and 3 row boxes to the 2 row ones I have played, I would not want to go down the CBA route because it wouldn't feel or sound like a melodeon.

[fc diato]

I completely agree with squeezy.

In another point: I often read on this forum that you must  ‘first decide what music you want to play’  We can overthink this, IMHO   . So unless you have some desire to play Cajun, or Quebecois or TexMex (or some such style that had very distinctive sound) then going versatile (like the Dony) allows one to explore.
Having been where you are quite recently (a year), I decided that at some point that I couldn't possibly know enough yet to make a perfect decision (I sitll don't), so I just had to take the plunge. I did so with the Dony – with help from the forum - and absolutely love it. Besides, some music I thought I loved and wanted to learn I now find boring; Some music I had not considered (or even knew existed) is becoming my favorite. The Dony can give years upon years of pleasure and possibilities; and if your musical aspirations change, you can always buy another box, sell and buy, change some of the accidental layout …. Any decision you make is reversible!

Re the unachievables on 2 row.- here is a less technical answer than Chris Ryall’s (ok, not technical at all – I”ll have to retire before I have the time to learn enough music theory to understand him)
Jovane Jovanke and Talijanska are completely doable on the Dony. Don’t know about the last. For Balkan music & klezmer in general though, the big thing missing is more than one B-flat. But it has taken me a year to figure out that this is the extra note I want (it will probably take me another year to figure out where I’ll put them and what I’ll sacrifice to get it). In the meantime, there’s so much to learn, and fun to be had!

On the weight issue:  I had trouble at first, and with a bad shoulder had a few weeks of regret for the light 2-row. But good advice from melnetters and better positioning quickly resolved that. Unless you do a lot of plane / train travel with your box, I would'nt worry about it.

My 2-cents of concluding advice: just go for it!

[jerfish]

I ended up saving some and went Galaad. I love it so far, but have dedicated far too little time to any playing for some time