Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Nick Collis Bird]

Brilliant Steve

[Nick Collis Bird]

Puts it all into perspective

[Steve_freereeder]

Ouse Washes Molly Dancers: why we have black faces and not green, blue, red or any other colours of the rainbow...

Molly dancing is a well-established tradition originating from the fenlands of East Anglia. It goes back at least as far as the 18th century and possibly older than that. The tradition developed among the plough boys who were understandably reluctant to return to work in the cold, wet fenland fields in January, having just had a bit of a break for Christmas. So they unilaterally took an extra day off: Plough Monday, which is the first Monday after Epiphany (Twelfth Night).

On Plough Monday the plough boys of the fenland villages would disguise themselves in outlandish clothes and black up their faces with soot, and they would visit the houses of the wealthy and the landowners, begging for money, food and drink, in return for performing dances and songs. The plough boys also would drag a plough along with them and it was understood that failure to provide said money, food and drink would result in the plough being used in the dead of night to plough furrows through the gardens of the miserly. So yes - it was a form of 'trick or treat' with menaces 

Dark times, dark time of year. Molly dances traditionally are often dark and sinister, telling the story of executions, naval battles, civil war conflicts and similar. Serious stuff. The blacked-up faces are partly a reflection of this. The overall requirement of the Molly Dancer (or musician) was that they should not be recognised, so that retribution in the form of sacking or fines could not be applied.

A blacked-up, jet black, matte face is particularly good at masking shadows; something which other 'politically correct' colours cannot do nearly as well. Just how effective it is was demonstrated to me at Whitby Folk Festival 2013, when I was there with Ouse Washes. Among the spectators, close friends and even my own daughter failed to recognise me, even when standing next to them, until I spoke to them.

That's why we have blacked-up faces. Long may the tradition continue.

[Howard Jones]

This has already been discussed at great lengths on other forums, so I'll very briefly summarise my own views:

The origins of blacking up are unclear, but there is some evidence that morris and other rituals were doing so long before minstrelsy became popular.  it don't think the case is proven that blacking up originates from minstrelsy.

Minstrelsy was a hugely influential part of popular culture for nearly a century.  Morris took elements from this, including a number of tunes, as it did and still does from other aspects of popular culture.  It seems natural to me that a tradition which already involved blacking-up should adopt aspects of minstrelsy, but that is not to say that blacking up originates from minstrelsy or that it is imitating black people.  In that context it is also easy to see how the term "niggering" might arise but it should be remembered that the word didn't carry the same offensive weight that it does today.

The style of blacking up for morris differs from minstrelsy "black-face" and there is nothing else in morris costumes or dancing to suggest that it is stereotyping black people - if there were, then it would be offensive even without blacking up.

In today's multi-racial society and especially with the (fairly recent) tendency to take offence at the drop of a hat, it is understandable that blacked-up morris may be viewed with suspicion.  On the whole, empirical evidence seems to suggest that it is usually not black people who take offence, who can clearly see that there is no black stereotyping involved, but others doing so on their behalf.

I believe morris sides should take a robust stance and continue to black up and be willing to explain the reasons.  I understand why some choose to use different colours but I never feel these have the same dramatic effect.

My 2p

[John MacKenzie (Cugiok)]

There seems to be a breed of person around, looking for causes to espouse. Their motto seems to be, 'If you're not offended, let me be offended on your behalf'  They then proceed to do their Don Quixote impression, tilting at imaginary windmills, and instead of being offended on your behalf, they become offensive. All the time wielding the sword of righteousness, and self justification.
Professional bleeding hearts, are a pain in the proverbial.

This is not aimed at anyone in particular, but shoe horns are available.

John

[malcolmbebb]

What Howard said.

[Thrupenny Bit]

Having sat on my fingers but followed most of this.....
I particularly like the points made in Steve and Howard's recent posts.

On a slight tangent, but relevant on a melodeon and traditional music theme:
I remember points made by Roy Dommett of things influencing morris, morris music and our traditional culture in general, further illustrated to me a few years back by the discovery and airing of some long lost silent film from about 1902-ish taken from the Manchester area and featured about 4-5 year back on BBC 2.
The clip featured a carnival, a long procession of clowns, floats, marching bands etc, and *every other* group was a black minstrel act.
The effect of this modern import of new music was *absolutely huge* and cannot be underestimated.
This had a knock - on effect for our traditional music as Dommett often recalls that we in England tend to adopt and embrace the new, throwing out the old.
This was further illustrated again during WWII when the Big Band Era hit with the influence of the American GI's bringing their band and music culture across the pond.

Again, new music was adopted to the detriment of our traditional music. Both influences went largely towards the situation found before the revival of the early '70's whereupon traditional music had become a dying thing with little clumps of old players dotted around various rural backwaters in the country such as East Anglia or Dartmoor.

Slight thread drift, but hopefully back towards us as players.
Q

[Chris Brimley]

Some very interesting comments, and I agree this is a fraught issue.

It might be argued that the distinction is this:  the point of blacking up is that a tradition is deliberately being presented for historical reasons, whereas any claimed 'justification' for the Black and White Minstrels was just mindless.  But actually, didn't the word 'Morris' derive from 'Moorish', implying that blacking up was originally intended to make the dancers look like what the audience (who would usually have been pretty ignorant about racial diversity) imagined 'Moors' looked like?  And their imagination would almost certainly have reflected a pretty racist view of what Britain's place in the world was.

So I have to say that this thread has rather changed my mind about this.  Up till now I hadn't worried too much about the issue, but I'm beginning to think that presenting a tradition that was probably once based on a racist view of others is actually quite a difficult thing to justify in the ethics of today, unless those involved carefully explain to their audiences the reasons why it shouldn't be regarded as potentially offensive.  And to be honest, I'm not sure that always happens.

[Davy R]

But actually, didn't the word 'Morris' derive from 'Moorish'

That's certainly one of the theories, but no more provable than any of the many alternatives for the origins of the name.

[Thrupenny Bit]

Agree with Davy R, the exact origins of the dance and also the name cannot be determined. It's lost in the mist of time .....
There is also a huge implication that we too had some form of indigenous morris that merged when a version of the dance was probably brought over with the court of Katherine of Aragon when marrying Henry VIII. Possibly......
I tend to think of 'morris' as I do 'circus'. The circus has lots of acts - clowns, musicians, high wire,  jugglers etc. that are collectively known as 'circus'. I think 'morris' probably has or possibly had a similar broad breadth to it.
Q

[derekc]

racism - definition  - the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or race.

Even if we did conclude the origins of blacking up was to make the dancers look Moorish, then the case as to whether there was racist intent or not, is not proven.

[911377brian]

My three black chums were just plain baffled when I asked them what their views were on the subject, none of them could see what the issue was, they just did'nt connect blacking up with racism. Dione, jazz singer, thought the Black and White Minstrel well over the top but could'nt associate blacking up for Morris with racism. All three liked the ritualistic aspect. I showed them piccies of blacked up Morris men by the way. OK, these people are educated and cosmopolitan, and we do live in Brighton.....

[Nick Collis Bird]

This is all becoming rather academic. I didn't really want to become involved with this apart from adding a light hearted touch with Gurning.
 Most comments here have been admirable but I beleive that blacking up has nothing to do with racism, if it had ,well surely isn't imitation the sincerest form of flattery? Eg the black and white minstrel show.
So apart from ignorant people, where's the problem.?

[Davy R]

So apart from ignorant people, where's the problem.?

It's largely with people who don't believe they are ignorant, but think those who have a different point of view are. And with the media, which likes to whip up a bit of faux "controversy" from time to time.

To use an example from a completely different sphere, I enjoy angling. I've done it happily for the last 50 years and intend to carry on doing so for as long as I'm physically able. It's completely legal and has somewhere between 3 and 4 million adherents in the UK, making it the biggest participant pastime in terms of numbers.

But one or two people I've encountered believe there's no difference between catch-and-release angling and bear-baiting. I've been called a "fish torturer" and told to "look in the mirror and examine my conscience."

You can't argue or reason with such deeply-held beliefs and as far as I can see, it's exactly the same with blacking-up for morris. I'm happy doing it, it's completely legal and I don't intend to stop doing it on the off-chance that somebody might not agree with it.

[Chris Ryall]

'fraid B&W minstrels comes into my 'racial stereotype' class and as such best consigned to history.  OK it was of its time, but its time related to the US 'Nword minstrels' tradition, which was to my mind taking that stereotype much too far.    .. though you could argue the same about its portrayal of the stereotypic Southern Belle? Hey, is no one else gonna join my campaign to demand ritual apology and compensation from Italy for the horrors perpetrated on our Greatn-grandparents   To say nothing of the blatently racism of zuppa inglese

[TomB-R]

Fair play to all concerned here for keeping this discussion very civil, (unless the moderators have been busy of course!)
Theo's confidence in melnet members seems to have been justified! 

[Chris Ryall]

.. typical Welsh grit

[Theo]

Fair play to all concerned here for keeping this discussion very civil, (unless the moderators have been busy of course!)
Theo's confidence in melnet members seems to have been justified! 

Thank you all.  I've not had to do anything, all comments as posted.

We seem to be repeating the same discussion now so time to bring this to an end.  Thank you all.