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Author Topic: Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'  (Read 5156 times)

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HallelujahAl

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Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'
« on: April 18, 2009, 02:49:12 PM »

Hi, I'm trying to learn to play on my D/G Hohner Erica Mussini's 'Il Silenzio' - but there is a final passage in the piece that sounds like a kind of mandolin, you know a typical Italian sounding tremelo or trill sound.  I've recorded my miserable attempt (link below) - but would really welcome any advice on how to get that wonderful sound on my instrument.
http://www.mediafire.com/?1kmmmtjmygn

Appreciate your response. Thanks, AL
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John C

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Re: Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2009, 07:17:08 PM »

Unfortunately I don't feel qualified to comment on ornamentation but would appreciate hearing what other say about this.

I enjoyed listening to you play - very nice!



John
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rees

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Re: Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2009, 08:45:25 PM »

Hmmmm, very interesting. I think it's perhaps too fast a trill for most players to manage with one finger.
I don't have my melodeon about me at the moment (why not?.. you rightly ask) but I would investigate the following two options.

Option 1. Use two fingers in rapid succession on the same note.
Option 2. Waggle the bellows about a bit in a quivering stylee to simulate the tremolo.

There are some other more complicated and stupid options.
Option 3. Tune the reeds a mile apart to give a huge tremolo.
Option 4. Fit a tremolo device inside the box. This is often featured on very old melodeons and consists of a wooden flapper valve and lead weight arranged to open and close with air pressure and gives a most disconcerting warble.

I'll report back on Options 1 & 2.
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Rees Wesson (accordion builder and mechanic)
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HallelujahAl

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Re: Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2009, 08:36:15 AM »

Thanks Rees - be pleased to hear what you come up with.
AL
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ghijze mitter hacken

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Re: Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2009, 09:57:58 AM »

Hmmmm, very interesting. I think it's perhaps too fast a trill for most players to manage with one finger.
I don't have my melodeon about me at the moment (why not?.. you rightly ask) but I would investigate the following two options.

Option 1. Use two fingers in rapid succession on the same note.
Option 2. Waggle the bellows about a bit in a quivering stylee to simulate the tremolo.

There are some other more complicated and stupid options.
Option 3. Tune the reeds a mile apart to give a huge tremolo.
Option 4. Fit a tremolo device inside the box. This is often featured on very old melodeons and consists of a wooden flapper valve and lead weight arranged to open and close with air pressure and gives a most disconcerting warble.

I'll report back on Options 1 & 2.


Option 4 sounds like playing under water. Its called a tremulant and is also used in pipe organs. One of the first one row melodeons built by Frans van der Aa had such a device. If I remember well it was a construction by means of a metal sheet. There are made one or even maybe more recordings on cassette or LP.
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HallelujahAl

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Re: Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2009, 04:09:14 PM »

I'm struggling with bellows shake method - and even resting my chin on top of the RH side of the instrument and shaking my head while playing only has the effect of giving
1. slight tremolo.
2. wacking great headache and painful kneck muscles.

Be glad for more feedback
Paracetamol AL
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Owen Woods

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Re: Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2009, 04:28:34 PM »

I think you've made a reasonable stab at it. What would probably work best for me is similar to Rees' option 1, but not a simple alternation. If 2 is your index finger and 3, er, the one next to it that isn't a thumb I would use 3233233233233...

It's what I do when playing repeated triplets and works reasonably well. I can't see waggling the bellows working as well personally.
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OwenG

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Re: Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2009, 01:00:48 PM »

I haven't had a chance to listen to your playing yet, but to get that Mandolin-ish sound you could try trilling between two notes an octave apart - this might be easier than trilling on the same note.

The last time I saw Squeezy play he seemed to be adding tremolo to some long notes by waggling his left hand in a manner similar to string players.

Finally, have you checked out the video of Riccardo Tesi playing over on the videos page?

Cheers,

O
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finnhorse

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Re: Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2009, 01:38:53 PM »

I hear what you're doing with the tremolo effect.  Have you tried to play the tune on a single row box?  Given, you'd lose some bass possibilities but Cajun players are big on "pallet induced tremolo" and it's easier/more natural to pull off with the big pallets on a 4-voice single row instrument.  Wahwahwahwahwah... or you could just install a whammy bar like Jimi Hendrix.  I'm having a tough time trying to make it work nicely on the Pokerwork.
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Owen Woods

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Re: Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2009, 02:47:11 PM »

I like the idea of an "octave trill", that might work better than my idea (which, now I come to try it doesn't work as well as I had hoped. It's easier just to conventionally trill on the same note with two fingers)
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Groovebox

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Re: Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2009, 03:15:00 PM »

try hooking your box up to a wah pedal!

but i find repeating the note with two or three fingers works, or an octave tremelo like the others suggest would sound nice. When i  do octave tremelos, i  like to kind of twist my hand back and forth in between the octave buttons. 
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Matthew B

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Re: Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2009, 05:37:10 PM »

you know a typical Italian sounding tremelo or trill sound.  I've recorded my miserable attempt (link below) - but would really welcome any advice on how to get that wonderful sound on my instrument.

Al,

Maestro Gianni Costanzo does some splendid work with trills, twiddly bits, and assorted ornamentation.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtm4C0euwp4  Most of it is far beyond me.  However, I've found I can make the clever little hand-flap he does around minute 2:43 work quite well, and it gets a great tremelo effect.  You have to get the hand strap quite tight to make it work.

As an aside, it's encouraging to see that a generously built young man, in a wooly hat, with an accordion, is described by the Italian YouTube community with phrases such as "Bravissimo, preciso e pulito.Complimenti", "semplicemente bravo " and "Complimenti, uno dei migliori suonatori d'organetto che abbia mai visto." 
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HallelujahAl

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Re: Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2009, 07:03:35 PM »

Quote
Maestro Gianni Costanzo does some splendid work with trills, twiddly bits, and assorted ornamentation.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtm4C0euwp4 

This guy is brilliant! What a star. Right, I'm off to practice some more. LH bellows shakes & octave tremelo especially.
AL
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Owen Woods

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Re: Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2009, 07:48:20 PM »

you know a typical Italian sounding tremelo or trill sound.  I've recorded my miserable attempt (link below) - but would really welcome any advice on how to get that wonderful sound on my instrument.

Al,

Maestro Gianni Costanzo does some splendid work with trills, twiddly bits, and assorted ornamentation.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtm4C0euwp4  Most of it is far beyond me.  However, I've found I can make the clever little hand-flap he does around minute 2:43 work quite well, and it gets a great tremelo effect.  You have to get the hand strap quite tight to make it work.

As an aside, it's encouraging to see that a generously built young man, in a wooly hat, with an accordion, is described by the Italian YouTube community with phrases such as "Bravissimo, preciso e pulito.Complimenti", "semplicemente bravo " and "Complimenti, uno dei migliori suonatori d'organetto che abbia mai visto." 

Blimey, just when I thought I was getting the hang of this box business...

And unless someone has mucked about with the recording that would seem to be an A/E box that he is playing.
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HallelujahAl

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Re: Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2009, 08:34:23 PM »

Quote
Maestro Gianni Costanzo does some splendid work with trills, twiddly bits, and assorted ornamentation.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtm4C0euwp4  Most of it is far beyond me.  However, I've found I can make the clever little hand-flap he does around minute 2:43 work quite well, and it gets a great tremelo effect.  You have to get the hand strap quite tight to make it work.

I found that the left hand flap is the closest that I've come to making the sound that I'm looking for - it's maybe just a little too Frankenstein and not as much Neapolitan as I'd like though.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far though.

Got to admit that your man Gianni Costanzo could probably very easily produce the 'mandolin' sound. It appears that he holds his right hand quite rigid and extends his little finger (rh) which probably helps him to find the finger balance and strength that he needs. I think that I tend to play with 'soft hands' which maybe isn't the best way to play this kind of music - know what I mean?

AL
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xgx

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Re: Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2009, 12:14:39 AM »

Sorry Al ....it really doesn't work for me, Emilio Pericolo's (sp?) version on the trumpet is beautiful... against that the melodeon is a wheezy turn off...

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Graham

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sCANdanADIAN

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Re: Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2009, 05:42:33 AM »

There are some breathtaking bellow's shakes on this version of a Frosini waltz at 1:00 and again at 2:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1a_eq1zpjQ

I'd like to be able to something like that on my diatonic instruments but I think you need a unisonoric instrument to get those effects.

Arsenio de La Rosa pulls off some amazing bellows shakes at about 6:15 in this set,proving that he was the master of merengue tipico.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AdDIGFB0Hk&feature=channel

Chris
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HallelujahAl

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Re: Tremelo or trills on D/G Melodeon - Mussini's 'Il Silenzio'
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2009, 08:59:38 AM »

Quote
Sorry Al ....it really doesn't work for me, Emilio Pericolo's (sp?) version on the trumpet is beautiful... against that the melodeon is a wheezy turn off...

Ah! It's the way I play it!! You're dead right about my pathetic attempt. Romano Viazzani the London based pro accordionist that introduced me to the music plays a stunning version of it on his Beltrami PA - I also have an original recording of Gigi Stok playing the piece on his continental accordion. Both manage to get that Neapolitan, mando-trill, off perfectly.  I just love the piece - which doesn't necessarily show in the way I play it :D

Regards, AL
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